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Electrical Discharge - Update 3/7/09 - Problem Solved !

.....ugh.....

Today's story follows, and ends, worse than it started..... Ugh. It does have one perk though. :D

I came home from work today and looked on my porch for "the" package. It hadnt arrived yet. That was good and bad. Good for the fact that it wasnt already missed - And I would be home if a signature was required for the drop. Bad due to the fact that I was now.......Stuck at home, and not able or willing to leave for the fusible links - I wasnt gonna miss this drop. So, I decided to clean the starter and re-install it.

Then, Fed Ex rolled up.....To me....lol - I met the driver in the middle of the street, basically forming a one man road block. "You must want this pretty badly to try to stop my truck".....I looked at the lady square in the eye and cocked my head - You stopped, didnt you ?? :D I took the package from her and placed it in the shop, then hauled arse to OR's.

I picked up two links - one 14 and one 16. I got home and looked at what I needed to do ...to what... to get it all back together. When I looked, I noticed the link wire was still there, I just needed to splice it all back together again.

Being that the 16 was a double tap wire into the link, I ended up with the double in a yellow butt splice, with a single of the same gauge on the other end, which went into a blue butt splice, which down sized the connector enough to be able to crimp to the link. A rigged situation IMO, but acceptable if only used to verify the problem being fixed.

The entire engine harness is the next project - I'll be scrapping it and rebuilding it - Connectors and all. The candy of this is that when all is said and done, the wiring will actually be a harness capable of isolation, using added connections to create disconnects at the firewall, allowing the engine to be pulled and installed - "pre-wired". This is something used on military vehicles and is actual pretty convenient. This is also what made it acceptable to butt splice the chit out of my wires :D.

Anyway, back to the situation. I got the wiring connected to the starter again and while doing so, noticed that instead of the positive stud being loose (I tightened it last night), the smaller grounding stud was loose. Yeesh. No, I did not tighten it either :mad: even though I should have.

By now, I am working by drop flood light. The time has come. I went for the battery cables. I connected the positive cable with my new quick connects (I like em :bow:). I grab the chassis ground wire and pass it on the battery and watch a hugh spark occur. WTF. I grab the battery negative cable and quickly pass it on the battery - A huge spark.

I now have a dead short somewhere. Fortunately, tomorrow is Friday. I'll be tearing it down tomorrow night in some form or another.

I'll first check to make sure the starter wires arent touching (It was dark afterall). If they're clear of each other, I'll disconnect the starter and ring it out (even though it passed the test just the other day, the loose ground terminal, plus the carb cleaner when cleaning it - It gives me doubt at this point.). Im betting it will sound off. I kind of hope it does. A simple solution there. If it doesnt, I'll then ring the wire connector I 'fixed'. Hopefully it doesnt sound off, or I'll have to travel further in.

And thats where the problem sits now.... Argh....

I then came inside with "the package"........And opened my new Hedman 69830 headers. :D


Life - Is good.



Troy B
Ft Hood, TX
 
Try disconnecting the negative battery cable from the battery and with the test light clamped to the battery,touch the probe to the cable.If it lights,there's a short.

Now,you mentioned a new 2 prong plug for the alternator.When I installed mine I switched the wires around on the prong and didn't realize it thus causing the constant(though not as rapid as yours)drain on the system. Once I switched the wires around on the prong,all was well.

Another situation I had left me stranded a couple times with the rapid discharge.It kept blowing fusible links.Didn't figure out why til I was traveling down a chatter bump infested road and the radio started smoking,nearly catching fire.I quickly grabbed the screwdrive and pried the radio and cut the wires to it.After replacing the fusable link along the road I've not had any problems.My theory is that the rattling around on the dirt roads constantly shook something loose inside the stereo receiver and it finally short circuited.It was definately IN the radio,not in the wiring to the radio.I know this because I cut the wires off 1/4in.from the back of the radio.Something to check for.

Good Luck.
 
I had a bet with myself that that was going to happen when you fixed the links. Now, you either shorted a wire at the starter, or you have found what blew the link to start with.
I have been having auditors all this week, so could not jump in. But I was tracking your problems. They thought I was looking up information on the office computer, which I was. But I was split-screening the forum. I wanted to jump in so bad, when you said it was going dead while driving. That alternator is probably about 140 amp, and there was no way you were sucking it down below battery voltage while driving without something smoking.
The starter should not be the problem, because you see the short before you ever hit the key.
Make sure that the replacement wire is actually rated as a fusible link. They generally use a special insulation that is more fireproof than the regular stuff.
Until you find the short, and then drive it a while, we still don't know if the fuse blew, or just broke.
As a check, if you still have the old link, try cutting the insulation where the wire was broken and see if the ends were melted or a stress fracture.
J.
 
It doesn't matter how high amp rated the alternator is. If the link that provides signal to the alternator is broken, the alternator is not charging.
 
Seafarer76 said:
It doesn't matter how high amp rated the alternator is. If the link that provides signal to the alternator is broken, the alternator is not charging.
Click to expand...
Exactly. That was what I was trying to say in my post, just coming around from another angle.
He was thinking that he had a short so big it was sucking the battery down with the alternator charging. I knew that could not be so, because something would be smoking if it was draining 140 or so amps.
So, I knew that the alternator could not be charging.

I have seen 100+ amp alternators drawn down below 12 volts with the engine running, but they were using an electric winch which was drawing about 300 amps. No smoke, because the winch power leads were heavy enough to handle it. But, since there are few wires heavy enough to stall an alternator under the hood of your average truck, I knew that the alternator had to not be charging. And the reason his battery was going dead was because it was not getting charged, not because he had a really bad short.
On the down side, his battery is probably damaged to a certain extent now. They don't like being deep discharged several times.
But, I think he said it was new, so it will probably be ok for a while. It just probably does not have all of its original capacity, and may have a shortened life expectancy.

J.
 
Okay guys - I found....."it".......

A month ago I, before this problem occured, I changed my rear main. I completely dropped my transmis/fer pack as one when I did, so that I could clean it up and pull seals and such after dark. I did this task alone.

The point of this back story is this - It was at that time when the problem was created, and eventually bloomed into what it is today.

So......

I came home from work today and rang out my starter solenoid. It was silent. I then dropped it and put it to the side so I could tighten the ground stud later this evening.

I then pulled the starter harness up and around so I could easily access it from the side of the truck. I rang out the power circuit I had 'fixed' last night. It sang out - It was grounded. I then went for isolation, and cut the 'fixed' wire, and rang out the other wire to the connector - Silence. I rang out the 'fixed' circuit and it sang. So, the circuit which held the blown link was grounded.....somewhere.

I began tracing. After un-wrapping and such, I found that it crosses the back of the block to the fuse block on the left side. And thats when I saw it. Simply put - When I lifted the transmis/fer pack back in place a month ago, I pinched this lone circuit, between the housing and the block. It took about a month for this wire insulation to break loose and present the wire itself for grounding.

Tonight, I found it, and spent about an hour messing with the idea and task of dropping the transmis/fer pack from the end, leaving it titled enough to recover the wire. The idea failed. I wasnt about to drop the pack for something like this, so I ended up cutting the wire. It is completely loose now.

Tomorrow, I have a slightly difficult task to complete. The cut end of the wire is right behind the distributor. I have to un-wrap the harness etc to pull the other end out then fix the circuit. Obviously, this is why the fusible link blew - It did its job.

I will post results tomorrow sometime, once everything is back together and running. As it turns out - I am the gremlin. :doah:


Thanks for all the help you guys gave, and the idea bouncing as well. Its greatly appreciated.



Troy B
Ft Hood, TX
 
It happens. Ive seen this more with ppl putting heads back on 4 bangers, they always get the ECU or TB wires sandwiched between head and block. no biggie, lesson learned. bet ya dont do that again. lol.
 
No joke on that comment....

By the schematic, I'll also be fixing my horn and cigarette lighter with this circuit... Nice.

I didnt trace my headlight circuit though because I have the HD harness going in afterwards. I will test the original circuit prior to installation however. I think Ill check the Chilton on that right now.


And, ya - Lesson learned :doah:



Troy B
Ft Hood, TX
 
Cool, I won the bet with myself. I had a hunch that after you fixed the fuse link, a short would show up. You're right, the fuse link did its job. But, the good news is the short was there full time.

I had a worse problem with my old Jeep. From time to time it would blow the fuse for the turn signals.
It might last a day, week, or a couple of months. But sooner or later it would blow.
Afterward, absolutely no sign of a short. Open circuit into the megaohm range.

Finally, after over a Year! of trying to find it. I gave up.
Extended the power lead, and mounted a push-to-reset circuit breaker in the dash. Whenever it would pop, I would push it back in and keep driving.

About 8 years later, I was doing some rewiring on the front end.
I discovered there was a wire that went from the left side of the Jeep to the right to power the right front blinker.
This wire had gotten embedded in the antirattle strip of canvas or felt that ran across the top of the radiator grill under the front of the hood. The felt kept the hood from touching it normally.
However, when I hit a bump, the hood would briefly slam down on it and touch a worn spot.
That would not blow the fuse though. That wire was only hot when the right front blinker was on.

So, the fuse only blew when I hit a bump making a right turn with the blinker on and it was in midblink when I hit the bump.

No wonder I could not find it.
Still got the breaker though. Just for old times.

J.
 
In a way - Thats amusing. ONLY under certain conditions would it blow - Thats a compound deficiency.......Those suck. 8 years later - wow :eek1:

All of my missing elelctrics should be restored once I have everything back together, headlights included. Its nice to be back to broken-even. After proof of the fix, I'll be installing the HD headlight harness, which will draw straight from the battery with relays in place.

Then I'll be headed to the muffler shop for those headers to be installed, followed by the engine harness fabrication.



BTW, what'd you win from the bet ? Did you shake on it ?? :D




Troy B
Ft Hood, TX
 
Fordum said:
Cool, I won the bet with myself. I had a hunch that after you fixed the fuse link, a short would show up. You're right, the fuse link did its job. But, the good news is the short was there full time.

I had a worse problem with my old Jeep. From time to time it would blow the fuse for the turn signals.
It might last a day, week, or a couple of months. But sooner or later it would blow.
Afterward, absolutely no sign of a short. Open circuit into the megaohm range.

Finally, after over a Year! of trying to find it. I gave up.
Extended the power lead, and mounted a push-to-reset circuit breaker in the dash. Whenever it would pop, I would push it back in and keep driving.

About 8 years later, I was doing some rewiring on the front end.
I discovered there was a wire that went from the left side of the Jeep to the right to power the right front blinker.
This wire had gotten embedded in the antirattle strip of canvas or felt that ran across the top of the radiator grill under the front of the hood. The felt kept the hood from touching it normally.
However, when I hit a bump, the hood would briefly slam down on it and touch a worn spot.
That would not blow the fuse though. That wire was only hot when the right front blinker was on.

So, the fuse only blew when I hit a bump making a right turn with the blinker on and it was in midblink when I hit the bump.

No wonder I could not find it.
Still got the breaker though. Just for old times.

J.
Click to expand...

I had a similar problem in my wagoneer, it took me 3 batteries and 2 years to finally find the wires feeding the tailgate power window was shaffing on the hole going at the bottome of the tailgate, and it would occasionnaly touch when I am bouncing, it would actually cut the power to the engine, then comes back with a bang, and sometimes I would open the tailgate to unload and the truck would die and couldn't start again.
When I found it by chance when the window dropped and I had to open it up to put the window back in it's channel, I almost cried.:rolleyes:
 
I won a cream tart!.
Thats a line from a John Cleese movie called Clockwise.
Not a lot of folks have seen it.
( John Cleese has gotten his car stuck in a field. He is running along a hedge, and sees a man sitting on the other side of it eating his lunch.
He runs up to him and starts demanding to know where he could find a tractor.
The man looks at him and asks, "what do you think I am sitting on?"
Cleese makes some rude insulting remark about his bum, or something and says he is going to go find a tractor.
The guy watches him run off, and holds up a pastry while, of course he is sitting on a tractor, and says "OK, mate, you go that way, and I will stay here. I will bet myself a cream tart that I find a tractor before you". "Oops, I win". He eats the tart)
 
Heck, I took pictures of the wire when I found mine, I was so happy. Showed them to my friends, never could see why they didn't see the joy.
 
Well, this problem comes to an end.

I got everything back together, ringing out as I went (call it paranoid), tapped the ground cable and got no spark. I connected the battery and started it up.

Before I even left the cab, I tapped the horn button. FIXED

I then set the cigarette lighter and began counting to 10. It popped. FIXED

I turned on the park lights (headlights were still disconnected). They came on. FIXED

I ran around to the battery and whipped a reading on it - 13.97-99vdc. FIXED

I then connected the headlights and they shine. FIXED


All of this from one wire :doah: I guess next time I'll be a little bit more observant of wiring.


Thanks for all the replies and idea bouncing guys - This issue is behind me now. :bow:




Troy B
Ft Hood, TX
 
Last edited:
I almost did that very same thing last time I connected my tranny. I did actually pinch the wire, but I noticed before I tightened the bolts all the way.
 
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