Engine swapping a 454 Vortec and keeping the factory TBI

[CUCV2]

The TBI 454 engine in my 87 crew cab has suddenly started to smoke and run rough. Not sure why... but if it is in need of serious engine work, I have a Vortec 454 that I would like to put in it. I searched and found very little info on this but it looks like it may be possible to just put the TBI 454 intake onto the Vortec motor and keep it fairly stock and straight forward while gaining a better engine design. Is this true? What else would be needed? I have a SM465 truck. Will the TBI need to be reprogrammed? Which starter would I use? Can I just use the existing flywheel? I admit to not knowing a lot about engines but when I hear about internally and externally balanced flywheels and the like, my head starts to pound a little. So, any light that can be put on the subject is appreciated.

Gratuitous pic of truck included.

 

[diesel4me]

I'd try to determine why it started smoking and running rough,it might be something simple like a clogged PCV valve ,making blowby get into the cylinders and fouling plugs..is it blue oil smoke,or a whiter colored smoke ?..
I have seen gas make white smoke on EFI vehicles if they get "flooded" by a bad injector or fuel pressure problem,if it has a fuel pressure regulator they can flood the engine when the vacuum diaphragm fails..
It could be coolant getting in a cylinder also from a bad head gasket or cracked head..the spark plug in the affected cylinder will be washed clean if its been burning coolant..oil consumption will turn them oily and wet..

 

[Scribbles]

http://tbichips.com/

This guy is super helpful with TBI stuff.

 

[CUCV2]

I'd try to determine why it started smoking and running rough,it might be something simple like a clogged PCV valve ,making blowby get into the cylinders and fouling plugs..is it blue oil smoke,or a whiter colored smoke ?..
I have seen gas make white smoke on EFI vehicles if they get "flooded" by a bad injector or fuel pressure problem,if it has a fuel pressure regulator they can flood the engine when the vacuum diaphragm fails..
It could be coolant getting in a cylinder also from a bad head gasket or cracked head..the spark plug in the affected cylinder will be washed clean if its been burning coolant..oil consumption will turn them oily and wet..

The smoke seems more white than blue and it continues even after it has been running awhile. It did it once before but I revved it a few times and it stopped and started running smoother again. Maybe it is a PCV.

http://tbichips.com/

This guy is super helpful with TBI stuff.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

 

[Jimmy85]

Small block vortec heads are drilled different tbi style heads for the intake manifold. Vortec intake manifold bolt are vertical, compared to the original design of angled. I have to believe the big block head/intake bolts are different. Both engines are internally balanced, so flywheel can be reused. And you get a roller cam and lifters with the vortec!
I run a stock vortec .30 over without reprogramming. Idles a little low, but not an issue.

 

[454Sub]

Just buy a Vortec to carb intake, and slap an adapter plate on it.

I did the same setup, and ended up using a Snapon scanner to read O2 milivolts and did a "hoosier" tune based on that at full throttle runs. Ended up with 14.5 psi and it worked flawlessly.

 

[Larry]

1996 to 2000 Vortec L29 454’s will accept any old carbureted/TBI BBC intake like any other old big block, unlike the Vortec small blocks where the intake bolts were fashioned differently. Hell, I have an Edelbrock carbureted intake on a 454HO with L29 heads. The biggest difference is the L29 heads do not have an exhaust crossover through the intake. Not really much of a big deal and actually one less place for the intake to leak. The intake ports are bigger on the L29 as well where the TBI intake won’t match up exactly but you’ll never know the difference. If it was the other way around where the head ports were smaller would be an issue, not so much when it is the other way around. Slap your TBI intake on the L29 and go. The flywheel will probably be different but the starter will work but you may need different bolts. I can’t remember if the blocks on the L29’s were standard or Metric. I doubt there would be any PROM tuning that would need to be done. The flywheel I used on mine was a 14096987. 454's are EXTERNALLY! balanced but there could be difference between your flywheel and the L29 flywheel due to the later one piece rear main seal.

Same engine as above when it was in my K10 with MPFI before I did the 8.1 swap. I used an Edelbrock intake I had laying around in order to keep TBI on the truck above.

Some pictures of the different BBC heads

 

[454Sub]

As a side bonus on the L29 only, you can order this feller from GM to replace your 4x crank sensor reluctor wheel to this L21 24x reluctor wheel and use 0411 or newer LS stuff including the coil near plug ignition similar to the 8.1 but with the crank sensor in the timing cover.

 

[CUCV2]

1996 to 2000 Vortec L29 454’s will accept any old carbureted/TBI BBC intake like any other old big block, unlike the Vortec small blocks where the intake bolts were fashioned differently. Hell, I have an Edelbrock carbureted intake on a 454HO with L29 heads. The biggest difference is the L29 heads do not have an exhaust crossover through the intake. Not really much of a big deal and actually one less place for the intake to leak. The intake ports are bigger on the L29 as well where the TBI intake won’t match up exactly but you’ll never know the difference. If it was the other way around where the head ports were smaller would be an issue, not so much when it is the other way around. Slap your TBI intake on the L29 and go. The flywheel will probably be different but the starter will work but you may need different bolts. I can’t remember if the blocks on the L29’s were standard or Metric. I doubt there would be any PROM tuning that would need to be done. The flywheel I used on mine was a 14096987. 454's are EXTERNALLY! balanced but there could be difference between your flywheel and the L29 flywheel due to the later one piece rear main seal.

Same engine as above when it was in my K10 with MPFI before I did the 8.1 swap. I used an Edelbrock intake I had laying around in order to keep TBI on the truck above.

Some pictures of the different BBC heads

View attachment 286831[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the complete and very helpful response. That sure is good news. Is there anything special that needs to be done? Like with the distributor or can I just reuse all of the TBI equipment? Does it matter which accessory drive that is used? I have also heard of some reverse flow cooling systems. It seems like the 454 would remain consistent but a confirmation would sure be nice. Will the L29's exhaust manifolds work in a square body, should I use the TBI454 exhaust manifolds, or is their a better option to maximize the L29's potential?

As a side bonus on the L29 only, you can order this feller from GM to replace your 4x crank sensor reluctor wheel to this L21 24x reluctor wheel and use 0411 or newer LS stuff including the coil near plug ignition similar to the 8.1 but with the crank sensor in the timing cover.

Thanks you for adding more useful info.

 

[beags86]

1996 to 2000 Vortec L29 454’s will accept any old carbureted/TBI BBC intake like any other old big block, unlike the Vortec small blocks where the intake bolts were fashioned differently. Hell, I have an Edelbrock carbureted intake on a 454HO with L29 heads. The biggest difference is the L29 heads do not have an exhaust crossover through the intake. Not really much of a big deal and actually one less place for the intake to leak. The intake ports are bigger on the L29 as well where the TBI intake won’t match up exactly but you’ll never know the difference. If it was the other way around where the head ports were smaller would be an issue, not so much when it is the other way around. Slap your TBI intake on the L29 and go. The flywheel will probably be different but the starter will work but you may need different bolts. I can’t remember if the blocks on the L29’s were standard or Metric. I doubt there would be any PROM tuning that would need to be done. The flywheel I used on mine was a 14096987. 454's are EXTERNALLY! balanced but there could be difference between your flywheel and the L29 flywheel due to the later one piece rear main seal.

Same engine as above when it was in my K10 with MPFI before I did the 8.1 swap. I used an Edelbrock intake I had laying around in order to keep TBI on the truck above.

Some pictures of the different BBC heads

I just noticed you labeled the dog! Lol

 

[Larry]

Thank you for the complete and very helpful response. That sure is good news. Is there anything special that needs to be done? Like with the distributor or can I just reuse all of the TBI equipment? Does it matter which accessory drive that is used? I have also heard of some reverse flow cooling systems. It seems like the 454 would remain consistent but a confirmation would sure be nice. Will the L29's exhaust manifolds work in a square body, should I use the TBI454 exhaust manifolds, or is their a better option to maximize the L29's potential?

Thanks you for adding more useful info.

Well, you should be able to reuse all your TBI goods (intake, dizzy, sensors, etc. although the knock sensors may need to be changed to a metric thread sensor). The L29 has different exhaust manifolds so I’d reuse the ones you have to save a trip to the exhaust shop (L29 manifolds are less than sterling anyway due to the huge EGR tube going into the driver side manifold).

The timing of this is rather funny, as I’m currently fostering () an L29 as of last weekend for Zoomad75 for his upcoming L29 swap and was able to confirm the L29 is indeed a metric block meaning all the threaded holes in the block are metric. And with yours being an 87 with V-belts those brackets may not bolt to the L29 as the accessory bolt mounting holes may be different. That is something you’ll have to figure out. If the L29 came to you with accessory brackets, this would be the perfect time to move to serpentine belt anyway. L29’s have the best serpentine belt system of all the big blocks and the pad mount A/C on the L29 is far better than the old R4’s. If you don’t have A/C, that is fine too as all you need to do is add an idler pully on the A/C bracket and run the non-A/C belt part number. Any part store will have the information on the idler and belt. If you decide to run V-belt you will definitely need to reuse your water pump or get a new one for an 87 with standard rotation.

View attachment 286832 I just noticed you labeled the dog! Lol

Ya, I miss that dog. He crossed over the rainbow bridge a couple years ago. Man, he was a good dog. He was a Pitbull/Rottweiler/Southern Hound mix straight out of Southern Alabama. He even barked with a Southern accent. I’m serious!

 

[454Sub]

I used TBI 454 brackets on my L29, but had to use the metric bolts.

Edit: my TBI engine brackets were the single serpentine belt sryle, not that v belt miss match thing they had going on.

 

[imiceman44]

The TBI 454 engine in my 87 crew cab has suddenly started to smoke and run rough. Not sure why... but if it is in need of serious engine work, I have a Vortec 454 that I would like to put in it. I searched and found very little info on this but it looks like it may be possible to just put the TBI 454 intake onto the Vortec motor and keep it fairly stock and straight forward while gaining a better engine design. Is this true? What else would be needed? I have a SM465 truck. Will the TBI need to be reprogrammed? Which starter would I use? Can I just use the existing flywheel? I admit to not knowing a lot about engines but when I hear about internally and externally balanced flywheels and the like, my head starts to pound a little. So, any light that can be put on the subject is appreciated.

Gratuitous pic of truck included.

View attachment 285935

Unless you got the engine without the accessories, intake and ecm why would you want to use the tbi stuff instead of the mpi superior system?

 

[CUCV2]

Unless you got the engine without the accessories, intake and ecm why would you want to use the tbi stuff instead of the mpi superior system?

Ease of installation and less down time. The Vortec belt drive makes sense to use but I was asking because I know enough to know that I don't know everything and there is many a slip betwixt a cup and lip. Meaning that there always seems to be some issue with these sorts of swaps where one is better to use than the other. I'd like to use the Vortec setup but let's say I had plow that used a hydraulic belt drive off the factory belt system. That would be an issue. It's not here because I happen to have a, somewhat rare for these trucks, Fischer electric over hydraulic minute mount system.

 

[imiceman44]

Ease of installation and less down time. The Vortec belt drive makes sense to use but I was asking because I know enough to know that I don't know everything and there is many a slip betwixt a cup and lip. Meaning that there always seems to be some issue with these sorts of swaps where one is better to use than the other. I'd like to use the Vortec setup but let's say I had plow that used a hydraulic belt drive off the factory belt system. That would be an issue. It's not here because I happen to have a, somewhat rare for these trucks, Fischer electric over hydraulic minute mount system.

Well after driving a stock 1999 454 truck, I am looking for a donor or a reasonably priced engine.
I have a friend who might part one and he wants $800 for complete engine package.
I am waiting for him to decide

 

[CUCV2]

Well after driving a stock 1999 454 truck, I am looking for a donor or a reasonably priced engine.
I have a friend who might part one and he wants $800 for complete engine package.
I am waiting for him to decide

They seem to be quite the improvement over their predecessor. And then they upped the ante even more with the 8.1L. Sure wish they would bring the BBC back to GM. I'd love to see what they could do with one now.

 

[Kay86K5]

They seem to be quite the improvement over their predecessor. And then they upped the ante even more with the 8.1L. Sure wish they would bring the BBC back to GM. I'd love to see what they could do with one now.

Larry has said this a couple times on this site but PSI Engineering took the 8.1 liter platform and stroked it to 8.8l (540ci) and they are currently putting it in new school buses. For those that can identify an 8.1 can look at the 8.8 and immediately see the resemblance. I believe most of those 8.8's are propane injected (can't remember off hand though).

I really wish GM would either contract with PSI, or buy back the rights or something for that 8.8, throw some LS injection on the top of it, and offer it as just an option to the dirtymax. Sure the dirtymax could be the standard option, but give the weekend hauler type of guy the option of purchasing with a BBC again. I have never (nor do I ever plan to at this moment) purchased a brand new vehicle. However, if GM actually did that, I would most likely be one of the first dudes at the dealer ordering one up, and I would just plan to never sell the truck for as long as I lived.

I truly don't think GM has any plans on doing that in the near future though. They seem too worried about putting out 10 million cross-over vehicles for Mr. and Mrs. Dumbass. But who knows, maybe I will eat my words. I know lots of people are starting to get fed up with new diesels because the emissions on them are getting out of control and expensive (and then raising the purchase price and maintenance even more than before). That's why you are still seeing 15+ year old diesel trucks (pre-emissions) retaining their value so much cause guys are willing to put 10k into an old diesel that has 300k miles on it and just keep driving it instead of paying 80k+ for a new emissions equipped truck. And lots of those guys are going back to gas for simplicity, even with paying a slightly higher gas bill, they still make out better for the wallet in the end. So maybe all that will get GM to pull their head out of their a$$'s and give the general public a BBC option again....who knows.

 

[ZooMad75]

Larry has said this a couple times on this site but PSI Engineering took the 8.1 liter platform and stroked it to 8.8l (540ci) and they are currently putting it in new school buses. For those that can identify an 8.1 can look at the 8.8 and immediately see the resemblance. I believe most of those 8.8's are propane injected (can't remember off hand though).

I really wish GM would either contract with PSI, or buy back the rights or something for that 8.8, throw some LS injection on the top of it, and offer it as just an option to the dirtymax. Sure the dirtymax could be the standard option, but give the weekend hauler type of guy the option of purchasing with a BBC again. I have never (nor do I ever plan to at this moment) purchased a brand new vehicle. However, if GM actually did that, I would most likely be one of the first dudes at the dealer ordering one up, and I would just plan to never sell the truck for as long as I lived.

I truly don't think GM has any plans on doing that in the near future though. They seem too worried about putting out 10 million cross-over vehicles for Mr. and Mrs. Dumbass. But who knows, maybe I will eat my words. I know lots of people are starting to get fed up with new diesels because the emissions on them are getting out of control and expensive (and then raising the purchase price and maintenance even more than before). That's why you are still seeing 15+ year old diesel trucks (pre-emissions) retaining their value so much cause guys are willing to put 10k into an old diesel that has 300k miles on it and just keep driving it instead of paying 80k+ for a new emissions equipped truck. And lots of those guys are going back to gas for simplicity, even with paying a slightly higher gas bill, they still make out better for the wallet in the end. So maybe all that will get GM to pull their head out of their a$$'s and give the general public a BBC option again....who knows.

You won't see GM buying back into the big block, 8.1 or 8.8. As much as I agree it's not going happen. The 6.6 Gas direct injected small block engine is coming to replace they now old L96 6.0 that's been the only gas engine option in GM HD trucks. Word isn't out on the HP/TQ numbers but if you look at what the Gas direct injected 5.3 and 6.2 engine put out for power now it's not hard to figure it will have more HP and TQ than it's smaller brothers. If they figure out a way to get the torque coming in sooner by the cam/head and rod length, they might be onto something. It won't be a replacement for a dirtymax, but like you said it would be a better option for the weekend warrior types that don't tow heavy loads often enough to need the BS that the modern diesel requires.

Too bad the new 6.6 Gasser is going to come in the butt-freaking ugliest truck ever forced onto the market ever. Google it, it makes the '19 1500 model so much less horrible looking it's not funny.

 

[Kay86K5]

You won't see GM buying back into the big block, 8.1 or 8.8. As much as I agree it's not going happen. The 6.6 Gas direct injected small block engine is coming to replace they now old L96 6.0 that's been the only gas engine option in GM HD trucks. Word isn't out on the HP/TQ numbers but if you look at what the Gas direct injected 5.3 and 6.2 engine put out for power now it's not hard to figure it will have more HP and TQ than it's smaller brothers. If they figure out a way to get the torque coming in sooner by the cam/head and rod length, they might be onto something. It won't be a replacement for a dirtymax, but like you said it would be a better option for the weekend warrior types that don't tow heavy loads often enough to need the BS that the modern diesel requires.

Too bad the new 6.6 Gasser is going to come in the butt-freaking ugliest truck ever forced onto the market ever. Google it, it makes the '19 1500 model so much less horrible looking it's not funny.

Yeah, you are probably right on all accounts here. The problem is in the towing game with gassers, you need the cubes to gain the low end torque (but that in turn is going to suck more gas and people are so mpg sensitive in todays world it's almost boarding on stupidity at this point...in my opinion). Even bumping the liters up 0.6 I don't think is going to get it done to make it an actual player in the towing game. I'm interested like you to see how it really does...but who knows, maybe GM will surprise me and make that 6.6l gasser actually be able to tow alright without having to rev it to the moon on slight grades.

And I saw the new released trucks on FB yesterday. It looks as though Ford fired their "design experts" and GM went and hired them the next day. It's probably the ugliest truck GM has ever put out. It literally looks just like the new Fords from the front end all the way to the rear...so dumb

 

[beags86]

https://www.google.com/amp/gmauthor...o-introduce-new-6-6l-v-8-gasoline-engine/amp/

I don't know, with high flow heads, proper cam profiles and direct injection. I think it could be a contender.

Am I'm a big block guy as much as anyone.