F engineers

[Confedneck79K30]

Jfc. Did brakes last night and plugs this morning on the wife's 2016 burb. Whoever the satanist is that designed the #8 plug location should be shot. Having to lay underneath the truck to do one plug and it started to rain. 7 and 8 both have oil on the threads at 97k... yaaay. Now off to hunt down a used diablosport tuner.
Oh, ya think it was time for brakes or what??
The fronts were the same... got all the good out of these pads for sure.

 

[centexk5]

My 14 Silverado is easier to change plugs on than my blazer. Tons of room to get to all the plugs from up top.

 

[diesel4me]

BUT..6.2's that don't usually don't start half the time below freezing ..

 

[JoshHefnerX]

Jfc. Did brakes last night and plugs this morning on the wife's 2016 burb. Whoever the satanist is that designed the #8 plug location should be shot. Having to lay underneath the truck to do one plug and it started to rain. 7 and 8 both have oil on the threads at 97k... yaaay. Now off to hunt down a used diablosport tuner.
Oh, ya think it was time for brakes or what??
The fronts were the same... got all the good out of these pads for sure.

View attachment 337809

Ever done the plugs on a 4th gen Camaro.. lol

 

[diesel4me]

Worst ones I ever changed were in a '77 Chevy Monza "Spider" with a 305,that originally had a 262 V8 ..with headers!..had to remove the steering shaft to get at the drivers side ones..and be a contortionist ..took like 3 hours..

 

[JoshHefnerX]

In the 4th gens the back cylinder and a half are under the dashboard. They're all tough to get to esp #8. Some people have had better luck getting to #6 and #8 from underneath but still sucks.

 

[ZooMad75]

If I had a dollar for every time someone said "F engineers" in the shop I'd be a rich sob.

I could rattle the list off of really crappy access jobs we deal with right from the General. I won't because it's comically long.

If we had the joy to meet one of those sadistic fools we take him out back and have an old fashioned beat down.

There is one constant in automotive design since Henry came up with the assembly line. Engineer's design for assembly on the line first. Serviceability after production is merely an afterthought.

It's why we pull cabs to replace a turbo or head gaskets on any GM full size diesel. If you follow the service manual they will have you do it without cab removal and it will eat up all your time in access alone. We can get a cab off in 3 hours or less. Time to access the rest of the engine is in minutes not hours. Job pays 14.1hr and my guy can be in and out in 8.

 

[tRustyK5]

Flat rate is a great motivator...

 

[eric67camino]

If I had a dollar for every time someone said "F engineers" in the shop I'd be a rich sob.

I could rattle the list off of really crappy access jobs we deal with right from the General. I won't because it's comically long.

If we had the joy to meet one of those sadistic fools we take him out back and have an old fashioned beat down.

There is one constant in automotive design since Henry came up with the assembly line. Engineer's design for assembly on the line first. Serviceability after production is merely an afterthought.

It's why we pull cabs to replace a turbo or head gaskets on any GM full size diesel. If you follow the service manual they will have you do it without cab removal and it will eat up all your time in access alone. We can get a cab off in 3 hours or less. Time to access the rest of the engine is in minutes not hours. Job pays 14.1hr and my guy can be in and out in 8.

I'm doing headgaskets on my 01 LB7 right now. Don't have the capability of pulling the cab, so doing it the hard way.

Could shoot the guy that thought it was OK the way it is. Why couldn't they shape the firewall so that you can get to that last bolt on the driver side rear?

 

[Blue85]

First sign a wrencher doesn't know how design works is that they blame the engineers! In truth, (some) engineers are very talented and handsome people that make good designs when allowed. Program managers and accountants call the shots and force compromise at every stage. The ability of some future owner to easily change sparkplugs that last through the warranty is way down on the list of priorities. If you couldn't get to market on time, build and sell the truck at a profit, there would be no truck for said future owner to struggle with to begin with.

If you add 1 hour of warranty service time on 10,000 vehicles that will need it, that's only $1M. If that saves you just $10 per vehicle, that's 10's of millions of dollars. No brainer.

 

[Wes Harden]

It's why we pull cabs to replace a turbo or head gaskets on any GM full size diesel. If you follow the service manual they will have you do it without cab removal and it will eat up all your time in access alone. We can get a cab off in 3 hours or less. Time to access the rest of the engine is in minutes not hours. Job pays 14.1hr and my guy can be in and out in 8.

SSSSH, Tomorrow you'll get a service bulletin from gm with"revised" service procedure and the job will flag 6 hrs

 

[ZooMad75]

SSSSH, Tomorrow you'll get a service bulletin from gm with"revised" service procedure and the job will flag 6 hrs

No kidding. My guys that have been to the Denver GM training center end up talking to other techs and hear the same thing. The whole labor time study concept is flawed in the first place. They line up the exact tools needed, in the order they are needed in. Working on a factory fresh vehicle with no issues with rust or corrosion of any type working in a lab clean environment. Essentially taking out any roadblocks that might trip up any tech to make the time as efficient as they can. I got beat up regularly by techs when I was at Workhorse for that very reason. Except for my pals at Workhorse took it a step further to screw all. The labor time studies they did were on bare strip chassis, as in no body on them. It was blatant and pissed all of us Service reps off to no end. There was no friggen way any tech could R&R an a/c compressor on an RV chassis with the body in the way in the time they allowed at 1.2 hours including evac and recharge time. You couldn't access from under the hood as you couldn't see it behind the core support. Depending on the size of the hole in the floor for the engine cover you might see a section of the compressor and reach the lines by braille lying on the floor reaching into the hole blind. We finally convinced the warranty department by averaging the time that the service reps were allowing to pay over the book time based on actual clock times from the techs doing the work. It brought the total time allowed up to 3 hours, which some dealers still griped over but got set straight really quick.

Turning that idea for adjustment onto GM isn't ever going to happen. I had a situation where a labor time was completely unrealistic for anybody even at master level certification. I followed the prescribed path they ask us to go through for a time adjustment to get the labor time changed. 6 months later I got a simple email. We got your time request, reviewed your data and the procedure and feel the current labor time posted is accurate. No adjustment made. We just have to get better and beat them at their game.

 

[diesel4me]

I remember my older brother telling me when he worked at a Chevy dealership service department,one of his co-workers had to replace an engine in a later 70's G-10 van..which required removing the grille,radiator,hood and disconnecting all the various hoses and lines--not much different than a pickup truck--except for the fact in a van,the access SUCKS and you cant get at half the bolts from under the hood or thru the doghouse..it takes much longer than pulling a pickup's engine--but the flat rate book only allowed about the same amount of time to do it..

The mechanic looked over the job and said f***k that,I'm not doing it "their way"...instead he put the van on jack stands just behind the doors and removed the front suspension cross member (cradle),and took off the front brake lines and P/S hoses and A/C hoses,battery cables,radiator hoses,etc,and rolled the entire assembly,engine ,transmission and cross member,like a wheelbarrow on its front tires using a floor jack..

He then pulled the engine off the transmission,swapped all the external accessories to the new engine ,and put it all back together..it took him about 3-1/2 hours...other vans that had been done using the method GM detailed took a whole day,if not a day and a half..
Then the service manager said since it only took "half a day",that was all he was going to pay him for..

 

[JoshHefnerX]

No kidding. My guys that have been to the Denver GM training center end up talking to other techs and hear the same thing. The whole labor time study concept is flawed in the first place. They line up the exact tools needed, in the order they are needed in. Working on a factory fresh vehicle with no issues with rust or corrosion of any type working in a lab clean environment. Essentially taking out any roadblocks that might trip up any tech to make the time as efficient as they can. I got beat up regularly by techs when I was at Workhorse for that very reason. Except for my pals at Workhorse took it a step further to screw all. The labor time studies they did were on bare strip chassis, as in no body on them. It was blatant and pissed all of us Service reps off to no end. There was no friggen way any tech could R&R an a/c compressor on an RV chassis with the body in the way in the time they allowed at 1.2 hours including evac and recharge time. You couldn't access from under the hood as you couldn't see it behind the core support. Depending on the size of the hole in the floor for the engine cover you might see a section of the compressor and reach the lines by braille lying on the floor reaching into the hole blind. We finally convinced the warranty department by averaging the time that the service reps were allowing to pay over the book time based on actual clock times from the techs doing the work. It brought the total time allowed up to 3 hours, which some dealers still griped over but got set straight really quick.

Turning that idea for adjustment onto GM isn't ever going to happen. I had a situation where a labor time was completely unrealistic for anybody even at master level certification. I followed the prescribed path they ask us to go through for a time adjustment to get the labor time changed. 6 months later I got a simple email. We got your time request, reviewed your data and the procedure and feel the current labor time posted is accurate. No adjustment made. We just have to get better and beat them at their game.

I would politely invite them to come show you how they do that.

 

[yellowK20]

**** Flat rate , and **** warranty work. I’m so glad I was steered away from that type of work.

In my world it’s all time and materials, period.

 

[ZooMad75]

I would politely invite them to come show you how they do that.

Honestly, dealing with GM today is a giant pain in the ass compared to even 5 years ago. I'd have better progress made talking to a brick wall. They have taken away any authority to the service and sales reps that call on us. So you get forced to call the myriad of 800 numbers they have for different departments and get run through the ringer and end up in the same position you started. Even the regional manager is a corporate yes man that lacks any ability to get stuff done.

It's sad really. It's not the way it was when I was there 17 years ago.

 

[JoshHefnerX]

That sucks... For everyone involved. Sales/service/techs get screwed on hours. Consumer gets screwed on costs and probably reliability. GM corp gets screwed because they're not learning anything - esp w/ regards on how to make things better or more accurate.

 

[ZooMad75]

Yep I think when I first started out of college at Chevy customer assistance I had more authority to get things done than my service rep does now. It's maddening knowing how it should work vs how it goes today.

 

[Confedneck79K30]

First sign a wrencher doesn't know how design works is that they blame the engineers! In truth, (some) engineers are very talented and handsome people that make good designs when allowed. Program managers and accountants call the shots and force compromise at every stage. The ability of some future owner to easily change sparkplugs that last through the warranty is way down on the list of priorities. If you couldn't get to market on time, build and sell the truck at a profit, there would be no truck for said future owner to struggle with to begin with.

If you add 1 hour of warranty service time on 10,000 vehicles that will need it, that's only $1M. If that saves you just $10 per vehicle, that's 10's of millions of dollars. No brainer.

we all know why they do it my friend. It doesn't change the fact that those handsome fellas are sadists.

 

[Blue85]

Go ahead and design an engine that will go in 20 vehicles with perfect tool path on all fasteners. But of course some of these vehicles won't be designed for several years.