Filter Saga

[Fordum]

Folks, let me warn you upfront, this does not have anything to do with a GM product, I don't think. So you might not want to waste your time.
However, it does concern my Mahindra tractor, so anyone following that might be interested.

One of the few things about my tractor that bugs me is the oil filter. First of all, its very small. I have never been a fan of small oil filters. Especially on a diesel.
But I change the oil and filter every 100 hours or so, with Amsoil, so I figure its ok. The manual calls for a filter change every other oil change I think, but I never do that on any of my vehicles.

What bugs me the most, is the cost. Close to $30 for this tiny thing.
Bill's Tractor, an online dealer I order from sometimes has it for $25.99, still too high in my opinion.
The tractor is coming due for its 250 hour oil change, so I decided to try to find a different filter.

The Mahindra number does not cross to anything, but the actual filter is a Denso. I went to Bill's site, and they had a picture of the filter.
Denso, with 115010-5350 stamped on the side.

Glory be, that crosses to a WIX 51056! Checked out the picture on the WIX website, and its dimensions, and it looked likely.
Since WIX makes NAPA's gold line, it crossed to a NAPA 1056.
O'Reillys lists the WIX for $15.99, in stock at my local store.
NAPA lists it for $16.49, also in stock locally.
I have heard stories that some WIX filters are outsourced these days and are not the quality they used to be, but the ones they build for NAPA are still top of the line.

I even found a Purelator number, but not in stock locally.
Figured I would swing by NAPA the next day and grab one.

Then I started having second thoughts. Bill's website has been pretty good to me, but he did have a mis listing for some fuel filter parts once.
He corrected it as soon as I reported it, and refunded my money when I sent the wrong parts back, but still.......

Then I remembered that I still had an old filter sitting on the catch pan from the last change. Wandered out and grabbed it.
Denso, all right, part number looked the same, but I brought it in to check, just in case.

Bills picture showed a filter with part number 115010-5350. The actual filter had a part number of BT115010-5351....
One digit. And only one number different plus the BT prefix. How much difference in price could it be??

Yeah, right.......

That number crosses to a WIX 57000. Cost? O'Reillys: $26.99, not in stock!
NAPA: $29.99, in stock....

I downloaded the specs for the two models.
Flow rate Same
Bypass setting same
hole? Same 3/4-16
The only differences were the height, the wrong one was slightly shorter, by about 1/2 inch, and the diameter, the wrong one was smaller by about 1/8 inch, I think.
And, of course, close to double the cost for the right one.
I have no doubt that the wrong one would have worked, all the critical dimensions were close enough. But, it was smaller, and I already think the filter is too small.

Plus, do I want to risk my 250 hour old engine for less than $20? No!

I bought the NAPA one. The clerk staggered a little when he saw the price and the actual filter. Wound up giving it to me for about $18, the $30 being list.
So, I got it cheaper than stock after all.

The only thing either of us could figure out as to the price, that filter is listed for a large number of Yamaha outboards, and I guess it suffers from the "marine" markup.

Looking inside through the center hole, the Denso has a metal tube with filter material behind it all the way down. The WIX has a big coil spring first, with the tube and filter stuff below it.
It looks like the WIX has less filter material than the Denso, but I feel certain that there is filter all the way up, but you can't see it for the spring and seal material.
Surely WIX would not skimp on filter. The WIX/NAPAGold name is too good for that.......Right?

Anyway, I included a couple of pix. The WIX is about 1/16 inch shorter and maybe half that much less in diameter, the pictures make it look like more.
I stood my standard sized wireless mouse up next to them to show just how short they really are.

 

[dyeager535]

Oil filters are getting to be like batteries. You really don't know what kind of quality you are getting, you have to take it on faith. And who wants to risk the oil filter?

I had *heard* that Wix no longer makes all of Napa's filters. But that depends on who you ask apparently. And the manufacturers normally won't divulge that info either.

The chinese are apparently producing knockoff oil filters as well. They will throw an OEM label on them. Hyundai/Mobis filters are coming with holographic stickers I'm assuming in an attempt to make faking them more difficult. One would hope that even though you tend to pay more than elsewhere online, buying from a chain or the dealer will net you an OEM piece.

I had a back and forth with Wix (well, really it was just them responding) regarding their filters in my car, which I'd seen statements online that the manufacturer wouldn't warranty the vehicle if you didn't use their filters. Wix came back with the Magnuson-Moss Act information, and very clear that their filters met spec if they were sold for that engine/vehicle.

 

[Fordum]

I notice that the Denso is marked " Made in Thailand". The WIX is marked " Made in the USA", Of course, stamps are cheap and easy to make. I do notice one difference between the two.
The old one, made by Denso has an actual "O" ring for a outside seal, while the WIX is the standard flat rubber washer. While I like the ring better as a seal, the flat washer type has been used on millions of oil filters over the decades, so I figure its pretty good.
I have no idea about parts quality on stuff from Thailand, so it could be good or bad. I just hope the USA sticker on the new one is real.
If I had to pick what changes I would do to the tractor, a remote oil filter with a larger filter would be right up at the top of my list.
But, the next main mod I am going to do is the fuel filter. Next time I have to change the one that is on there now, I will try to adapt the new type I bought a few months ago. Its a spin on type with a water collection part on the bottom with a drain.
Just not a lot of room for me to mount it.

 

[6872xtc]

What if you looked into a bypass filter? It could add a little bit of capacity , plus more filtration.
While I understand your desire to change the oil at 100 hrs, (my Dad taught me that too.) You are using a good oil, and I have have pulled oil samples on trucks at work, which gave gone over 700 hrs and the lab said it was acceptable, even though it was conventional oil.
I am talking about a ready-mix truck with probably an average speed of 9 mph. And some of the guys drive them like they stole them!
If the oil gets hot enough to burn off condensation most every time it runs , you may think about extending the service interval.
I know that a guy whom you have never met, telling you this, isn't something that you will easily accept, but it could be an avenue to consider. Well , both things . Bypass filters may , or may not be an idea.

 

[Tnsejed]

Its the trend nowadays to disguise cross reference. With just about everything. I've got an inlet air filter for a set of board fans on one of my Okuma VMC's. The filter is pretty much no different than a standard household furnace filter with sheetmetal instead of cardboard for the case. about 12"x12". Similar to my screw compressor inlet filter which msrp'd for 40 bucks.

I cannot find a cross reference anywhere. The filter costs $279.00.... I've gotten down the trick for washing it without destroying it.

 

[tenderfoot]

 

[Fordum]

I more or less agree that I am almost certainly changing the oil too often. If I had a larger filter, I would be more comfortable. On my truck, I think I change it about every 10K or so. But, I am running Amsoil in it too, plus it uses the big FL1 filter.
With Amsoil, I am more worried about dirt and combustion byproducts in the oil than oil breakdown.
There are two basic reasons I don't go longer with this engine.
First, dirt. It has a two stage air filter, and the inside stage seems to stay clean. But its not unusual for the dust to get so thick around the cabin, I cannot even see past the hood. I just have to believe that some small amount is getting in the engine somehow.
And that leads me back to the small filter.
There is no way to know when it goes into bypass due to being stopped up.

Second, this engine gets worked hard.
I realize that its highly geared, but I ask things of this small 36 horse tractor that are way beyond what I would expect it to do. The bush hog mower that I am using weighs about 1500#, has a 90hp rated gearbox, and has a minimum hp rating of 32 hp.
The tractor just handles it. I do see the engine bog slightly when I hit a big fire ant bed, but it revs right back up.
The disc harrow is very heavy. 5 feet wide, many discs. When I got it, I was afraid that the tractor would not be able to pull it. Started off in low range, quickly realized that in really low gears, all four tires just dug in and the tractor went nowhere.
Wound up in 4th gear, low range, and the tractor was moving along briskly. Took a chance and tried 1st gear high range. No problem. Went to 2nd gear high, and finally could tell the engine was seeing a load. But it still easily maxed out in rpm. The only thing I saw was that the temp gauge finally made it to center range normal from slightly cool.
I tried 3rd gear high, but could not stay in the seat from the bouncing. Tractor did not seem to care, still pulled the disc sunk down to the axles. Even so, I know I am asking a lot of that little engine.
As for a bypass filter, I used to think they were the stupidest things I ever heard of.
After I studied them, I realized the only stupid thing about them is the name. It sounds like they use extra fine filtering for some oil, and let some dirty oil bypass the filter.

Which, of course is not the case. All the oil gets standard filtering, its just that a certain amount gets extra filtering after the regular filter.
I have the idea of a larger remote filter on a list in my mind. If I do that, I would probably add bypass at the same time. I would not mind increasing the oil capacity from 5 quarts to 6 or 7 with filters. But, money is way too tight right now for things like that.
Keeping food on the table is more important right now. Need to find some more companies that need an electronics engineering consultant.

tnsejed, there are companies that sell permanent replacement air filters for AC units. I have one on my heat pump here at the farm. I sent them the size of my existing filter, length, width and thickness, and they built me one with aluminum framing and washable element.
They don't just sell stock sizes, they custom build the filter to your specs.
I have been using this one for over 10 years, and it still works fine. I want to say it was in the $30 range, but its been a long time.

Bet they could build you one for your VMC fairly cheap. If you want, I'll go in tomorrow and get the name off the one I have and you can see what they could do for you.

 

[6872xtc]

While I definitely know what your concern is about the dust, and the work percentage, I will tell you that the trucks at work have 350-370 HP , and are 66K lbs, up to 70K lbs loaded. They spent a lot of time going from idle to 1800 to mix and load, then full throttle through stop and go traffic. The engine fans are set to come on at 210* by Cummins. And don't forget that Cummins is always had a fair amount of soot get into the oil, and blow by out of the vent.
The average person just doesn't see what these go through. I used to put 10K miles a month on my old heavy wrecker, (when running hard) we have a 2001 mixer with 232K miles, and 31,000+ hours. I've seen them get completely surrounded by regular dust, and once in a while, cement dust.
Take my view as you will, but I know from being around equipment and trucks for 35 plus years, you can extend the service interval safely. Pull an oil sample, and you will see.

I saw the Komatsu skid steer go 1500 hours on a service last year. It is still going, no one else cared, even though we about crapped in the shop! It has a turbo Yanmar diesel.

 

[6872xtc]

Another angle is, if you are using more expensive oil, and changing it early, you can only blame yourself for the cost. If the manufacturer says 250 hrs (?) and you do it at 100.
And if you chose to purchase the tractor, that was your choice as well. I have witnessed guys buy a Dodge with a Cummins, then complain about how much it costs to repair the diesel or Dodge problems. You at least can do the work yourself.
And I am not trying to be an a$$ about this, sorry if it comes off that way.

 

[Fordum]

Naw, no a$$. Actually, its the manufacturer who specified the 100 hours change.
The manual said change the oil and filter at 50 hours, then every 100 with a filter change every other oil change.
I agreed with the 50 hours, have done the equivalent on every new engine I have ever owned. On most new vehicles, I do a complete lube change after about 1500 miles, and again about 3K. That includes front and rear end in four wheel drive, engine, transmission and transfer case.
My equipment has got to last a long time, and does.
After that, I do engine oil about every 10K or so, and usually yearly other lube changes, depending on what kind of year its had. If its my truck, and I have been in lots of water, I change it right after hunting season. If its been a quiet year, I may let the other lube slide until next year.
With a dry year, ATF gets changed and the tranny serviced about every other year.

In the case of the tractor, I did an oil and filter change at 50, another at 100, using their oil. Then I did another at 150 using Amsoil. After that, its been every 100 with Amsoil.
I actually don't mind the high cost of the oil. I consider it worth it. Plus, with the use this tractor gets, it amounts to about a yearly oil change.

But I do object to the high price of oil filters for it. $30 is just too much money for a filter that will fit in my pocket. I will continue to plan for a remote filter probably with bypass in the future. I should be able to put on a double size filter than what I have for a lot less money. But, there is no a lot of room under the hood on this small tractor. Also, whatever mod I do has to be able to stand up to the abuse and vibration that a farm tractor has to put up with.
Another reason I go along with the recommended oil change intervals, is the engine its self.
Despite having Mahindra's name on the tractor, the engine and a lot of the rest of it was made by Mitsubishi, and it shows. High quality fit and finish, plus a smooth and fairly quiet running engine. Knowing their rep for precision and durability, I'm happy with the short time between changes.

Plus, I don't run a lot of diesels. So, when I pull the dipstick after 20 or 30 hours, and the oil looks black, I feel like I need to change it.......

 

[bigblock72]

Naw, no a$$. Actually, its the manufacturer who specified the 100 hours change.
The manual said change the oil and filter at 50 hours, then every 100 with a filter change every other oil change.
I agreed with the 50 hours, have done the equivalent on every new engine I have ever owned. On most new vehicles, I do a complete lube change after about 1500 miles, and again about 3K. That includes front and rear end in four wheel drive, engine, transmission and transfer case.
My equipment has got to last a long time, and does.
After that, I do engine oil about every 10K or so, and usually yearly other lube changes, depending on what kind of year its had. If its my truck, and I have been in lots of water, I change it right after hunting season. If its been a quiet year, I may let the other lube slide until next year.
With a dry year, ATF gets changed and the tranny serviced about every other year.

In the case of the tractor, I did an oil and filter change at 50, another at 100, using their oil. Then I did another at 150 using Amsoil. After that, its been every 100 with Amsoil.
I actually don't mind the high cost of the oil. I consider it worth it. Plus, with the use this tractor gets, it amounts to about a yearly oil change.

But I do object to the high price of oil filters for it. $30 is just too much money for a filter that will fit in my pocket. I will continue to plan for a remote filter probably with bypass in the future. I should be able to put on a double size filter than what I have for a lot less money. But, there is no a lot of room under the hood on this small tractor. Also, whatever mod I do has to be able to stand up to the abuse and vibration that a farm tractor has to put up with.
Another reason I go along with the recommended oil change intervals, is the engine its self.
Despite having Mahindra's name on the tractor, the engine and a lot of the rest of it was made by Mitsubishi, and it shows. High quality fit and finish, plus a smooth and fairly quiet running engine. Knowing their rep for precision and durability, I'm happy with the short time between changes.

Plus, I don't run a lot of diesels. So, when I pull the dipstick after 20 or 30 hours, and the oil looks black, I feel like I need to change it.......

Looking through the catalog; you might be able to use a 1773, 1459 and a 1516. These are all taller and cheaper but have similar bypass settings.

I think you should sample the oil and see what the engine really needs as far as oil changes. At least send in a sample at every service and make sure all is well with the motor. I have been able to catch coolant leaks (head gasket, liner) early enough to prevent any bearing damage just by sampling. I was even able to catch thrust wear caused by a stupid driver before any serious damage was done.

 

[6872xtc]

The only thing that I will say now, is that seems like a quick service interval when compared to some others, but they must have a reason.

Sounds like you have a good plan to me.

 

[dyeager535]

Since it's been suggested, have you actually looked into having the oil analyzed?

At $30 for the filter, and whatever you are paying for your oil, I'm pretty sure you can get oil tested for the cost of one of your oil changes. It would seem prudent, and the only way to "guarantee" that you are ok taking the thing longer before doing your changes. So maybe you will pay the same for your filters, but halve your interval. You've still saved 50%, on the cost of oil as well.

With some modern vehicles recommending 7500 mile intervals on conventional oils, I think it's best to have oil analyzed if there are questions. Because it's certainly possible for the engines and oils to last much longer than in the past.