Front shackle relocation on stock length springs for better ride in a 73-87 k10?

[Stevoh]

Hi guys! Been a long time lurker but decided to finally ask a question.

My truck has a 4" lift on which I no nothing about(bought it with the lift). It rides like crap, and was wondering if relocating the front shackle forward and using longer shackles with a rearward angle would allow for a better ride? I will be putting TC EZ rides in the rear (has blocks right now). I don't want to spend money on a set of "good" front lift springs as I will eventually do a correct 52" swap.

I've been googling this and questions like it(52" swaps, etc.) for a few days now, but figured I'd just ask you guys since hardly anyone seems to have done this.

In my search I have found that a lot of people have said that an angle of 20-45 degrees rearward (it varies a lot with most saying a 30 degree hang rearwards is best) helps with ride. One guy said he did it to his buddies truck with the stock length spring and said it rode way better.

Also it seems that a lot of the 52" swaps end up with a similar shackle angle which seems to be an underlying trend that helps with ride and flex. A lot of the people who have done this swap say the new shackle angle helps.

So my thinking is doing what the 52" swap guys do minus the actual 52" spring swap. What do you guys think?

Thanks.

 

[blazinzuk]

I have done it on some trucks. Usually buy an aftermarket mount then relocate it slightly. I only try for a 10° angle. I don't think it improves ride much but it does help flex.

Longer shackles contribute to sloppy and slow responding steering. As the bushing wears the shackle will flex more it also introduces increased flex on the frame.

52s have their own set of issues. They wear out quickly if you wheel alot and some don't like the body roll they have.

It's a topic worth reading everyone opinion on. None are particularly correct but it just depends on the end goals

 

[retroblazer]

Not much to add, but to start with the definition of a "smoother ride". You're driving a short wheel base truck, so stiff springs and shocks magnify everything. I have a set of 4" lift Deavers on my 94 Sub SOA, which use the same spring on a Blazer. Even though they are multiple leaf springs, it rides stiff. On the back of my Sub I added 1/2T Chevy Pick Up springs with are 63-64" compared to the stock Sub which are in the 50's. I added a leaf to an aftermarket spring that to make up for the added weight of the Sub, but it made a huge difference to the ride quality, even over the stock Sub set up, which is pretty smooth. So, long story short, don't waste too much time trying to change your ride quality up front without going to longer springs. A bandaid, is to get some adjustable shocks to make sure you're not overvalved for normal street use.
A front sway bar is a must on any long travel, or softly sprung vehicle.

 

[retroblazer]

One other cost factor to the long front spring or coil over, is the conversion to cross over steering. $$ Not too bad, but still a wad of cash.

 

[sreidmx]

I'll add to this, one of the other issues is the spring packs are setup to hold the height without sagging over time so the rate is really high sometimes like 5-600lb in, a Coilover truck is 135 lb in so you could imagine the change in ride quality when switching plus the other benefits.
I've use many many many different leaf packs up front and experimented with adding and removing leads etc.. I've done the 52,56 ferd 54,56 and found that there is a median where the truck rides decent but handles ok on the road.
I see the main issue with any lift spring being the lack of droop, which is exacerbated but the spring clamps restricting the leaf movement creating a lot more tension and slowing the wheel down. Basically adding a ton of rebound in a scenario that needs very little rebound damping.
So try this before you spend any more cash. Open up your spring clamps some to allow the leafs to fan a little bit, it doesn't need much but every bit can help. So maybe 1/4 inch of allowance for movement, grab a can of silicone lube or whatever atf something just to lube the springs up. This will allow them to move between each other easier. Pop the shocks off for a test drive on some marble type surface so you can see if this is because the shocks are wrong or the springs are in fact super stiff.
Last try and remove one of the lowest springs in the pack, this will cause sagging eventually but it doesn't sound like that matters too much. Lastly check your spring and shackle bolts, they should only be tight enough to not come loose, I double but or stover nut mine. You don't want the shackles loose but you also don't want the bushing to stop the leaf from moving.

 

[Stephen]

The short answer is "don't bother". You'll probably make it ride worse. I know steep shackle angles are sexy these days but they don't make our front springs ride better (or rears most of the time either). A shackled spring rate curve can end up at as much as 150% of the springs actual rate with just a 30 degree shackle angle. That same length shackle at a 90 degree angle never puts the combined rate over the springs' actual rate. You'll lose some droop travel but in general the gain in softer compression travel is worth it. It can get bad enough that you can actually lock out the spring system. We did this to ourselves on purpose on my '88 burb at one point with the 3" lifted 64's in the back. We put the shackle flip on so that the mount point was toward the front of the truck and it gave a shackle angle of about 43 degrees which sounds ideal by "what you read on the internet". But it WOULD NOT compress the spring past flat. Period no matter what we did. When you think about this extreme case it does make sense though. You have to make the spring shorter for it to invert and the shackle must swing forward. In order to swing forward it has to get "taller" or more vertical. The only way for it to get the room to do this is by picking up the truck which is exactly what the extra load on the spring is trying to do too. Your shackled spring rate just skyrocketed and you might as well have hit a bumpstop. This can be a real problem on the front of our trucks where the springs ride flat or close to it. You're losing out on some suspension motion if you stop it when the leaf is flat.
On my 'burb we turned the flip around and took the shackle angle down to about 66 degrees and it was very noticeable that it could now flex into the inverted travel zone. Ride quality improved when it could move farther.

Shackle angles are measured between lines through the main leaf eye centers and the shackle eye centers when the main leaf is totally flat. They can look deceiving since a lot of springs ride with a little arch and a lot of springs are mounted at an angle in the chassis so a shackle that looks straight up and down may already have a few degrees of angle on it since the spring is not mounted level.

The majority of the time the way to make these trucks ride better is to work in this order:
1: make sure there are no simple problems:
Shocks bottoming or topping out and are they moving freely?
Spring tail hitting the frame?
Bushings totally seized? (we recommend keeping them tight as the shackle should tighten against a sleeve that will rotate freely)
Driveshaft binding and preventing droop?
Swaybar disconnects? You'll need the swaybar to be loose offroad and not bind the suspension up on road.

2: Get softer springs. Good shocks won't hurt but the best gain is going to be in the springs. The suspension must move before you can think about damping it.
The ride quality given by normal aftermarket springs is not getting better over time. No big lift company cares enough about these trucks to re-design the leaf springs rather than coming out with a suspension for new platforms. We're expecting more from the trucks as we go also, we've all been around vehicles that ride better than ever for a long time. It is reasonable to be unhappy with the ride of a lifted truck with '70's aftermarket suspension technology.

3: Get better shocks. This is after good springs since once again you have to have suspension movement for shocks to work.

4: Get coils or coilovers. The

 

[obijuank5]

It's incredible how the general knowledge base of this generation of trucks has changed with everyone's experiences over the last 5 years. We have all really nailed down these trucks and ORD can really write it down and explain it very well. I feel like I have been down every front suspension Avenue and am about to step in to coilover territory because of the lacking support from the aftermarket for our trucks. And there is ORD with the r&d on coilovers. Awesome.

 

[sreidmx]

Coilover is the ultimate way to have your cake and eat it too.. good choice!

 

[Stephen]

I do have to say though, our custom springs with a set of just about any decent shocks gives really good ride quality and it all bolts into factory mounting points (maybe a little extra work on the shock mounts) and can be done in a day or less. Coilovers are a lot more expense and a lot more work. Worth it most of the time but there's a sweet spot in price, install ease, and performance around good leaves for sure.

 

[sweetk30]

all I can say is ord has been taking my pay checks a lot over the years with good products that work and great service even after the sale .

 

[Stevoh]

I have done it on some trucks. Usually buy an aftermarket mount then relocate it slightly. I only try for a 10° angle. I don't think it improves ride much but it does help flex.

Longer shackles contribute to sloppy and slow responding steering. As the bushing wears the shackle will flex more it also introduces increased flex on the frame.

52s have their own set of issues. They wear out quickly if you wheel alot and some don't like the body roll they have.

It's a topic worth reading everyone opinion on. None are particularly correct but it just depends on the end goals

Thanks, good to know about longer shackle effecting steering. I kind of like the responsive steering it currently has, just the ride is horrid.

Not much to add, but to start with the definition of a "smoother ride". You're driving a short wheel base truck, so stiff springs and shocks magnify everything. I have a set of 4" lift Deavers on my 94 Sub SOA, which use the same spring on a Blazer. Even though they are multiple leaf springs, it rides stiff. On the back of my Sub I added 1/2T Chevy Pick Up springs with are 63-64" compared to the stock Sub which are in the 50's. I added a leaf to an aftermarket spring that to make up for the added weight of the Sub, but it made a huge difference to the ride quality, even over the stock Sub set up, which is pretty smooth. So, long story short, don't waste too much time trying to change your ride quality up front without going to longer springs. A bandaid, is to get some adjustable shocks to make sure you're not overvalved for normal street use.
A front sway bar is a must on any long travel, or softly sprung vehicle.

No sway bar on the truck. So your Deaver springs ride too stiff? They were custom built right? Also, this is the kind of answers I was looking for regarding shackle relocation. Seems not worth the trouble.

I'll add to this, one of the other issues is the spring packs are setup to hold the height without sagging over time so the rate is really high sometimes like 5-600lb in, a Coilover truck is 135 lb in so you could imagine the change in ride quality when switching plus the other benefits.
I've use many many many different leaf packs up front and experimented with adding and removing leads etc.. I've done the 52,56 ferd 54,56 and found that there is a median where the truck rides decent but handles ok on the road.
I see the main issue with any lift spring being the lack of droop, which is exacerbated but the spring clamps restricting the leaf movement creating a lot more tension and slowing the wheel down. Basically adding a ton of rebound in a scenario that needs very little rebound damping.
So try this before you spend any more cash. Open up your spring clamps some to allow the leafs to fan a little bit, it doesn't need much but every bit can help. So maybe 1/4 inch of allowance for movement, grab a can of silicone lube or whatever atf something just to lube the springs up. This will allow them to move between each other easier. Pop the shocks off for a test drive on some marble type surface so you can see if this is because the shocks are wrong or the springs are in fact super stiff.
Last try and remove one of the lowest springs in the pack, this will cause sagging eventually but it doesn't sound like that matters too much. Lastly check your spring and shackle bolts, they should only be tight enough to not come loose, I double but or stover nut mine. You don't want the shackles loose but you also don't want the bushing to stop the leaf from moving.

Thanks for the advice! I will try out all you have mentioned. I was contemplated taking out the 2nd to the last spring on the front as the last one seems to small to really effect ride too much. Does this sound good?

The short answer is "don't bother". You'll probably make it ride worse. I know steep shackle angles are sexy these days but they don't make our front springs ride better (or rears most of the time either). A shackled spring rate curve can end up at as much as 150% of the springs actual rate with just a 30 degree shackle angle. That same length shackle at a 90 degree angle never puts the combined rate over the springs' actual rate. You'll lose some droop travel but in general the gain in softer compression travel is worth it. It can get bad enough that you can actually lock out the spring system. We did this to ourselves on purpose on my '88 burb at one point with the 3" lifted 64's in the back. We put the shackle flip on so that the mount point was toward the front of the truck and it gave a shackle angle of about 43 degrees which sounds ideal by "what you read on the internet". But it WOULD NOT compress the spring past flat. Period no matter what we did. When you think about this extreme case it does make sense though. You have to make the spring shorter for it to invert and the shackle must swing forward. In order to swing forward it has to get "taller" or more vertical. The only way for it to get the room to do this is by picking up the truck which is exactly what the extra load on the spring is trying to do too. Your shackled spring rate just skyrocketed and you might as well have hit a bumpstop. This can be a real problem on the front of our trucks where the springs ride flat or close to it. You're losing out on some suspension motion if you stop it when the leaf is flat.
On my 'burb we turned the flip around and took the shackle angle down to about 66 degrees and it was very noticeable that it could now flex into the inverted travel zone. Ride quality improved when it could move farther.

Shackle angles are measured between lines through the main leaf eye centers and the shackle eye centers when the main leaf is totally flat. They can look deceiving since a lot of springs ride with a little arch and a lot of springs are mounted at an angle in the chassis so a shackle that looks straight up and down may already have a few degrees of angle on it since the spring is not mounted level.

The majority of the time the way to make these trucks ride better is to work in this order:
1: make sure there are no simple problems:
Shocks bottoming or topping out and are they moving freely?
Spring tail hitting the frame?
Bushings totally seized? (we recommend keeping them tight as the shackle should tighten against a sleeve that will rotate freely)
Driveshaft binding and preventing droop?
Swaybar disconnects? You'll need the swaybar to be loose offroad and not bind the suspension up on road.

2: Get softer springs. Good shocks won't hurt but the best gain is going to be in the springs. The suspension must move before you can think about damping it.
The ride quality given by normal aftermarket springs is not getting better over time. No big lift company cares enough about these trucks to re-design the leaf springs rather than coming out with a suspension for new platforms. We're expecting more from the trucks as we go also, we've all been around vehicles that ride better than ever for a long time. It is reasonable to be unhappy with the ride of a lifted truck with '70's aftermarket suspension technology.

3: Get better shocks. This is after good springs since once again you have to have suspension movement for shocks to work.

4: Get coils or coilovers. The

Thanks Stephen! I just bought a steering brace and rear shock braces from you guys!

Thanks for all the advice. No sway bar, but I will check all the other points of concern you mentioned. Was thinking of unbolting things and seeing if ride improves.

Good to hear your side of the shackle angle argument. I guess when guys say the angle helps in the front, it is primarily the longer springs like retroblazer said.

I do have to say though, our custom springs with a set of just about any decent shocks gives really good ride quality and it all bolts into factory mounting points (maybe a little extra work on the shock mounts) and can be done in a day or less. Coilovers are a lot more expense and a lot more work. Worth it most of the time but there's a sweet spot in price, install ease, and performance around good leaves for sure.

Stephen I will probably call you guys this coming week about possible front springs.

 

[rayfin]

My 83 rides like a stage coach with 3/4 ton dodge springs up front...

 

[obijuank5]

For what it's worth, this is my sweet spot for my particular truck. 47" springs with the front mount directly under the body bolt.

 

[sreidmx]

You mentioned removing the second to last spring and that's totally reasonable, the shortest spring effects the entire pack. So removing it should yeild more as the springs compress, only removing the second to last will cause you to possible have a jump in rate somewhere in the travel.. just try and see..

 

[Stephen]

Another thing that is coming up here: rate and length are not directly related. I'll pause so the heads can explode for a minute and the keyboards can become bloody from the speed typing...




Keep in mind an 8 foot long dump truck spring is still built to hold up a dump truck. It's not going to flex under your K5 even if it is 96" long! A spring designed for a heavier load will have a heavier rate and higher capacity than a spring designed for a lighter load. Regardless of the length. This is my problem with guys swapping 56's in the rear of a K5, it's a 3/4T spring most of the time and rated for more than a K5s weight all the time. Being 8 percent longer doesn't make up for the fact that it's built to haul a load in a 3/4T truck. The only way to make it work is by doctoring the pack. Be ready for this. There's no arguing the OEs have gone with longer springs over the years and the trucks all ride pretty good, even in heavier rated form. But, a 1/2T truck 64" spring is softer and rides better than a 3500's 64" spring and if we throw all the OE restrictions of load carrying, packaging, cost, etc out the window we can build a shorter spring to ride the same as either.
We can design a custom spring with the same rate in a 45" long spring or a 64" long spring and they'll ride the same within some limits of roll stiffness. The extra length gets you travel which technically can translate to ride quality when you exceed the 10" or so travel limit of the shorter spring. But for most people, the term "ride quality" typically involves driving rough dirt roads and even on asphalt around town. Overall travel typically doesn't factor in at this point.

If your truck rides stiff, it's not because the springs are too short. It's because they're too stiff.

 

[sweetk30]

good write up on the info Stephen . . .

I have been trying to tell people this kind of stuff for years .

the little bit I know of leaf springs in the 1 year I worked in a leaf spring shop is huge . . .

as said its more than leaf count and length .

I have seen some 88-up gm 64" 1/2 tons take more than 1 main leaf thickness in the same looking / count pack .

there is a steel gauge for measuring that sort of thing to help guys in the shops id the correct leaf thickness . I have one I will have to take a picture of and post up .

 

[down4thakrown]

I did it and thought it helped.

 

[Big Ray]

TC springs is an upgrade by itself. You'll get a much better ride. If you are set on doing 52's, ORD can make a custom set that better than the stock rear 52's. Give them a call.