Front suspension idea

[85 Jimmy]

I currently have 52's in the front of my truck and I'm not so sure I like the streetability of it now.
When I swapped to 52's I moved the rear shackle hanger forward and I used DIY4X's B52 kit. Currently my front axle is 2" forward and I'd like to keep it that way.
I just went out and did some measuring and it looks like a set of stock 47" springs will work with the new shackle location, fit the mounting hole furthest back on the B52 kit, and keep my front axle 2" forward.
Is there any reason it shouldn't work to put some 47" springs back under my truck in it's current configuration?

I still have the lift springs that I had on the truck before I swapped to 52's, so I may give it a shot and see what happens. I'll just have to play with my shackle length to get my caster close, right?

 

[nvrenuf]

That's kind of when I was / am at with mine but I've decided to wait until I get shocks to make a final decision.

You are right about the castor and the shackles.

 

[85 Jimmy]

Well I hope someone has some input on it. I plan to swap back to my lift springs next weekend, maybe.

One thing I did notice is that I'm going to have to get new shackles if I stick with the 6" ones I have now. On the DIY4X shackles I have now they are drilled out to 9/16, (I'm using Kert's shackle hangers), but the rear bushing on the front springs use a 7/16 bolt, I believe. So I'll have to get another set from Kert with a 9/16 hole in one side and 7/16 in the other. Then if I need a shorter shackle I can drill out my 4" shackles from ORD.

 

[Snoozer]

I did the 52/56 last summer. I had major body roll just pulling out of the driveway and cruising around my neighborhood. (Even my neighbor was at the body roll... it was ridiculous). But I hadn't yet installed the front shocks... until this past Saturday.

Man, what a difference having Bilstein 5100 shocks on the front makes. Those shocks have some heavy valving in them. So much so, I had to use a ratchet strap on them to compress and hold them in position while I intalled the hardware. It made a big difference in the body roll I was previously experiencing. I still haven't driven the truck in the "real world", at normal speeds. But I was much happier after cruising the 'hood with front shocks on.

FYI: my 52s are long enough that I didn't have to move the front shackle hole forward on the frame, and the front spring bolt is in the forward-most hole on the B52 brackets. And my swing shackle angle is rearward. They're long 52s I guess (6" lift 52 inch springs).

 

[85 Jimmy]

It's not that I have body roll, it seems like the axle isn't staying centered in the truck during/after a turn and when I drive the truck down and uneven road.

I've thought about it for awhile, even before I posted this thread and I've come to realize that where I live there are no places to wheel. And all my friends that I used to go out with have all sold their 4x4 trucks, so I'd be going alone. Also, the places that I used to go to, you don't need that much articulation. It's mostly mild trails and mud.

At this point, I fell like I'd like to just drive the truck and enjoy it, and I fell like it would get driven more if I swapped in my old lift springs.

 

[Snoozer]

Have you considered a Panhard bar?

You probably already know all this. The Panhard bar ties the axle directly to the frame and doesn't allow for side-to-side axle movement, yet still allows the suspension to articulate up and down mostly, if not completely, "bind-free".

I, too, am experiencing some remorse with doing the 52 swap, even after I read all the pros/cons writeups on it for about 3 years, I still went through with it; thinking that "maybe" I'd have a better outcome. Hindsight, I probably should've kept the 47 inchers and just bought some nicer-riding springs like some Tuff Countrys EZs. My wheeling is like what you describe: mostly trails, and sometimes driving long distances on pavement to those trails. "Streetability" is a must.

Are you running Crossover?

 

[85 Jimmy]

I've considered a panhard bar, but at this point it would be cheaper and faster for me to just stick the Tuff Country EZ ride springs back in.

I am running cross over and hydraulic assist.

 

[dremu]

Man, what a difference having Bilstein 5100 shocks on the front makes. Those shocks have some heavy valving in them. So much so, I had to use a ratchet strap on them to compress and hold them in position while I intalled the hardware.

That's been my experience with all shocks -- if your old ones didn't require that, I think they were certifiably dead

Stephen @ ORD actually calls the 5100's soft, bit under-valved for our trucks.

-- A

 

[Snoozer]

My old shocks were definitely shot. I could compress them by hand with little struggle, and they wouldn't rebound back open again. Ranchos, from probably the 90s. "Bilsteins are a bit undervalved...", Mr. Watson says? Wow.

85 Jimmy, you're not alone man. Like I said, I'm on that same slippery slope and trying to pick the better route. I also think part of the axle wander issue probably comes from not running a front Swaybar. Swaybar kinda = Panhard bar, since it ties the axle to the frame (actually to the front crossmember). It must at least limit side-to-side axle movement. Unfortunately, there's no way to run the GM Swaybar with Crossover (which is why I asked if you were running X-over).


Back to your issue at hand, I know you've done the measurements and you say it seems like it should work to run 47s on the B52s and new shackle hole to keep the front axle 2" forward. Since you already own the springs to do it, I guess the only thing left to do it try it!

Please post pics and an update if you do!

 

[COCHEV]

There is a member on here running an aftermarket sway bar on his rig with crossover steering and 52s or 56s. He likes it.

 

[72blazerguy]

It's been a while and my memory may not be correct, but it seems like the 52" springs are wider. Your old lift springs will be too narrow for the brackets. I bought a set of those brackets to move my front axle forward and seem to remember that being an issue.

 

[Stomis]

Not if you use poly bushings.


I can't stand the notion of panhard bars with leafsprings. Its not a solution to body roll at all. Better shocks will work but the best answer is a torsional sway bar that will work with crossover.

Honestly I wish someone esteemed in the community would debunk the myth that panhards jive with leaf springs. They're contradictory forces. Leaf springs don't travel in an arc perpendicular to suspension travel, panhard bars do. Those problems come from issues like too tall of springs, too long of shackles, shot bushings etc.

 

[85 Jimmy]

It's been a while and my memory may not be correct, but it seems like the 52" springs are wider. Your old lift springs will be too narrow for the brackets. I bought a set of those brackets to move my front axle forward and seem to remember that being an issue.

I just measured, the Tuff Country lift springs are the same width as the stock 52's, but the bushing on the lift springs are wider than the Poly bushings I have in the 52's. I guess I'll find out tomorrow or the next day if the spring eyes are the same size. If they are I'll just take the poly bushings from the 52's and put them in the lift springs.

 

[Snoozer]

I can't stand the notion of panhard bars with leafsprings. Its not a solution to body roll at all... They're contradictory forces. Leaf springs don't travel in an arc perpendicular to suspension travel, panhard bars do.

Dang it. Had a long response and got timed out.

Long response-short, could you elaborate a little more on these "contradictory forces"?

 

[mrdrinksalil]

Do you have a sway bar in there and hooked up?

 

[85 Jimmy]

Do you have a sway bar in there and hooked up?

Nope.

I drove it a lot with the lift springs and no sway bar before I went to a Dana 60 in the front and never had any problem. I don't have a problem with body roll, I don't drive it like a race car, I slow down when turning or going into a turn.

 

[mrdrinksalil]

So what dont' you like about the streetability then? With the correct shocks, the 52" spring gives a much better ride. But if you're on the street a lot you need a swaybar with disconnects.

 

[85 Jimmy]

When I turn and then after I get out of the turn in my steering it feels like the axle shifts to one side to the other, and then it takes a few seconds for it to center back up after the turn. It also does that when I drive on uneven roads. It's more of a steering thing that I don't like.

I've read (I think) that 52" springs aren't designed to take a side load. So in a when you turn it will actually shift the springs side to side. I don't know how true that is, just something I think I read somewhere.

 

[Blue85]

I've read (I think) that 52" springs aren't designed to take a side load. So in a when you turn it will actually shift the springs side to side. I don't know how true that is, just something I think I read somewhere.

How are they different from any other leaf spring in this respect? I would suspect something loose, like the shackle bolts, front spring bushing, U-bolts, etc. I mean how can the spring be floppy enough to shift during steering, but not give massive body roll?

Have somebody turn the wheel while you watch everything underneath.

A couple other long shots:
-Bad steering U-joint hanging up?
-Front driveshift slip joint hanging up?

 

[Stomis]

Dang it. Had a long response and got timed out.

Long response-short, could you elaborate a little more on these "contradictory forces"?

Leaf springs want to stay dead straight up and down when the suspension travels. They only move back and front with the swing of the shackles.

A panhard bar moves in an arc side to side. As you compress to flat the panhard bar gets "longer", trying to push the axle away to the passenger side. When the suspension droops the mounts get closer due to the bar being on more of a steep angle. That trys to drag the axle over towards the drivers side. But none of that can function properly because leafs dont move side to side.

Sure do bushings and shackles allow it to move to an extent without binding, yes. Are there plenty of factory vehicles with panhards on leaf springs, yes. But over 12+ inches of suspension travel in an off road rig with a lot of articulation it binds and in mine and lots of other peoples opinion they are contradictory forces that should not be used together. On top of which people use panhards as a fix for something thats broken else where like I mentioned earlier.

Theres a lot of common scenarios where people say "You should add a panhard bar" on a leaf rig. The gangster lean trucks can get from taking a tight turn with 52s or 56s is one of them. It seems to be a common misconception that sway bars dont belong on offroad rigs when in fact its a matter of having the right swaybar.

Then theres people who have leafs that are so tall or shackles that are so long that when they turn the body moves rather than the tires responding correctly. Sure a panhard will stop that but it doesnt mean it wont bind. The correct fix is really to run a spring that doesnt have such a huge arch or not run mammoth long shackles. You can even switch to a stiffer bushing or make sure your bushings are in good shape. And if thats not an option that hydro assist is really the right answer to alleviate stress from the steering box and frame and move it to the axle itself where there is nothing to flex...