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Gear Guru's URGENT help needed!!!!!! *Update, Pics of Pattern Added*

readymix said:
No, No, No,.... Don't run it like that.
Look at the pictures you posted again. The pattern is too close to the root already so why would you want it deeper. The pinion is already too deep.
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Here is a pic of the latest pattern, it also has no shim and the backlash is a little bit tighter. No matter where I put the shims I get a crappy pattern. The pattern is not running too deep, when I run the pattern I dont see a little space on top of the gear and the pattern. I dont know how to explain it easily but from all the pictures I have seen you need a little space between root and top of the gear. Im not getting any space on top of the teeth. I have tried many different shim and backlash combinations, none of which seem to get my pinion depth anywhere close. When I ran .030 worth of shim my pattern was extremely high on the top of the teeth. But with no shims the pinion still isnt deep enough. I have tried every shim I have, .010, .012, .020, .022 and every combination in between. Is it possible that these gears will not setup? They are precision gears. I dont know what to do at this point.


Picture010.jpg

Picture011.jpg
 
Not sure on weather the fault lies in the gear set. But I can tell you that your pinion is too deep (on drive and coast sides)...... Take it or leave it. look closely at your pattern and you can see that it is running too far down into the root of the gear. You need to add pinion shims.
 
Carrier of gear difference

If this is a 14b. When I was at the Yard picking out an open carrier for my detroit, I noted that there were 2 different tickness in the 14 bolt gears depending on somethng and I cant remenver what it was. could that Be the difference?

Just my 2 cents.
 
Ok, based on everything I have read in this thread, it appears that you need to move the pattern down lower on the tooth closer to the ring gear bolts. This is done by reducing the backlash. The pinion shim moves the pattern either closer to the spider gears or closer to the diff cover (in and out). Backlash moves the pattern closer or farther to the ring bolts (up and down). It looks like you need to tighten your backlash a few thou. By the way .003 variation in backlash is about the max. might want to check for any burrs between the ring and carrier
 
hardcore71 said:
Ok, based on everything I have read in this thread, it appears that you need to move the pattern down lower on the tooth closer to the ring gear bolts.
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No, he needs to move it away from the root of the gear....not closer to it

hardcore71 said:
This is done by reducing the backlash.
Click to expand...
No it isn't

hardcore71 said:
The pinion shim moves the pattern either closer to the spider gears or closer to the diff cover (in and out).
Click to expand...
No it doesn't

hardcore71 said:
Backlash moves the pattern closer or farther to the ring bolts (up and down).
Click to expand...
No it doesn't

hardcore71 said:
It looks like you need to tighten your backlash a few thou. By the way .003 variation in backlash is about the max. might want to check for any burrs between the ring and carrier
Click to expand...
I bet the BL is fine. He need to set the pinion depth correctly as I have said a few times before.
 
Ok I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. The way the pattern is lining up now you say the pinion is too deep, meaning the pattern is too far into the root of the gear. However, even though it may not appear to be the case in the picture there is no space between the very tip of the teeth and the pattern. I drew the red line to illustrate the top of the tooth. All the pictures I have seen and everything I read I need to have just a sliver of yellow still showing on the tip. I am not getting that. When I take away shims from the pinion it should move the pattern deeper in the root of the gear right? And even with no shim the pattern is still all the way up the very top of the teeth. The first picture I got from pirate, this is about how much space I need in between the top of teeth and the root right?

hjjk.jpg

c5cf8418.jpg
 
Im not trying to go against what you are helping me with readymix, and I really do greatly appreciate your help. I just want to make sure that these gears are correct. I think the way the picture turned out its a little misleading.
 
I understand. Setting up gears is a PITA if you do not have the experience. The first picture is a good pattern. See how it is not bottoming out in the root. Now look at you picture, it is bottoming out. You have the pinion too deep.

It is kinda hard to understand what I am saying if you have not done it before. You think that it is too shallow.......but, if it was you would see the pattern running off of the face of the gear. Concentrate on the center of the contact patch not the edges.

I will try to find a good pic to show you what I mean. If i can not i will photo-chop yours to show you.

Oh, and in my last reply, I was not trying to be an as or anything like that. Just dispelling the bad tech that was put out. Too much money can be wasted if you do it wrong.
 
This is whta it would look like if it was too shallow. The first booger green is too shallow, the second is correct, and just below that is yours.....too deep
 
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:doah: Well I totally understand now. That makes perfect sense, I should be good to go now...what shim do you think I should start out with? I started with my .020 which was stock since I didnt have any markings on the old pinion nose to start with. What do you consider a big change in the contact patch from top to bottom? The rest will be easy getting the backlash in spec, Im as giddy as a school girl.
 
Sweet. Glad to help. I normally will change the pinion shims in about .010 - .012 increments until I get close, then change by .003 thou until it is perfect.
Remember that the changes you make in BL will affect how the pinion depth is percieved through the pattern. Thus, you must set the BL within spec (closer is better as it will lead to a stronger setup) before running a pattern. It sounds like you knew that already though. Just putting it out there for anyone who might find this thread in a search.

Post up more pics when you get close
 
K5er4life- Have you read the gear set-up instructions on the Randy's Ring & Pinion site, they do a very good job of explaining how to get a correct pattern. They also tell you that it is rare that you get a 'perfect' pattern. Readymix is on it, listen to what he says.
 
hardcore71 said:
Ok, based on everything I have read in this thread, it appears that you need to move the pattern down lower on the tooth closer to the ring gear bolts. This is done by reducing the backlash. The pinion shim moves the pattern either closer to the spider gears or closer to the diff cover (in and out). Backlash moves the pattern closer or farther to the ring bolts (up and down). It looks like you need to tighten your backlash a few thou. By the way .003 variation in backlash is about the max. might want to check for any burrs between the ring and carrier
Click to expand...

Just a little rhyme to remember:

"Toe and heel move the wheel, face and flank move the crank"

Basically backlash moves the pattern in and out (toe and heel) and pinion moves it up and down (on the tooth).

Also, its sort of hard to see yoru pattern, but you dont want a hard line at the bottom of the tooth.

Do you ahve any pictures since you took out pinion shim?
 
I cant get under there to change it until about wednesday. Then I will definitely take some pictures of my updated gear pattern. I am very sure I can get it now.
 
Ok Im pretty I sure I got it. The pinion depth looks much much better. I ended up with a .012 shim, I also had a .010, and a .016 but the .012 seem to gave it the best face to flank pattern. I tried to get the pattern more centered from heel to toe however I am already pretty loose with the backlash and I would rather not go any further. The coast side pattern is a little bit much to the heel but in the yukon book that came with the master kit said sometimes you cannot get a perfect heel to toe pattern while keeping the backlash still within specs. Well readymix, Im ready for the judgement...go ahead I can take it...

Picture015.jpg


Arghhh...Ill have to track down where the pic of the backlash went but as you imagine its a little bit to the heel.
 
Looks much better, what is the BL set to. Also when you tighten the spanners after BL is set, do it pertty tightly as it will make a stronger setup.

From what I can see in the pic, I would run it.
 
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