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GMRS misinformation correction

Wes Harden

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In the Moab communication thread, use of a frequency by official police/fire was mentioned. This confused me, and I asked about it. Question on the verge of hijacking the thread.
I started this to help me understand, and maybe others.

What is the difference between GMRS and Business Band? I had thought they were the same. I am realizing now that business use on GMRS might be a no no. Not sure about this.
What is MURS and what frequencies do it use?
 
So GMRS is running between 462 and 467 MHz. It is the general mobile radio service. It is for public use like CB radio is but it is on the FM side of the spectrum vs CB being AM. Much like the range And clarity difference between am and fm in your car radio, GMRS benefits from the increased range and clarity FM provides.


It does require a basic license but no test is required to get it. There are some limits to power output as it's more than CB but less than full blown Ham.

MURS is similar that is it public use, but it uses low wattage (2watts) radios. No license is required to operate and is in the 151-154 MHz range. Which somewhat overlaps the business band frequencies.

Business bands by definition are not public and each business pays to use a specific frequency in their area. I don't think one business has a right to that frequency across the country, but only in the area they are located. This way two or more business entities can have the right to use the channel but won't interfere with each other because the radios have a limited range.

Rugged radios in particular have posted on their website that they have bought licenses for specific frequencies across the country. They infer that the radio would technically require a ham license but as long as you stay on the pre-programmed frequencies they have licensed you as the end user are covered under the umbrella of their license.

They have been busted by the FCC over some of the radios they sell not being certified for the frequencies they programmed into them. They have not been hit yet over the sales pitch of telling buyers they are ok to use these frequencies under their license. I think through some legal trickery by having a notation on the website that it would require a ham license to use the radio they are getting away with it.
 
Keep this in mind. When it comes to the Baofeng radios and GMRS or the business bands. While anybody can tune in those frequencies the radio is not certified to be used on those bands. What I have done as well as others is technically illegal in the eyes of the FCC.

Baofeng got nailed for not locking out the ability to get to the non-ham frequencies. They were supposed to do that moving forward. Most other radio brands don't allow a radio designed for ham to access GMRS, business, marine emergency frequencies.

This makes it look like a "do as I say but not as I do" type scenario. We shouldn't be able to get to GMRS with a Baofeng but we can. The radios are dirt cheap and they work. You run one over or break it and you aren't out any serious money. We are not the only ones using them for the use of tail communication either. The point is to have a basic understanding and know what the rules are.

Honestly there are better options out there like anything else. Because the ham radio world is so technical and confusing it's daunting to get into. Most of the group I wheel with went to Midland GMRS base units in their trucks on my suggestion. It makes it so easy. No tuning, as the channels are programmed in. The the radios are as easy to use as a CB. Pick a quiet channel and go. The base units can have up to 40-50 watts of output vs 4 watts on cb or 5-10 on a handheld like a Baofeng.

Also having the antenna mounted outside of the truck vs a handheld radio with an antenna inside the vehicle is going to increase your range on top of the higher wattage. I've seen 10-15 miles with my group using the GMRS base units. Plus the quality of sound is like a phone call. Not scratchy like CB.

We've had very good luck with the GMRS stuff. We all have a spare Baofeng to hand off to others with us if they don't have them, but the main way is with the base units. We are able to talk truck to truck on the highway or trail with clarity that rivals a phone. We could be spread out or bunched up. Don't matter.
 
these all help, I have discovered GMRS is UHF and Business Band is VHF.
What started my confusion was 1 radio doing both UHF and VHF and programed channels all labeled GMRS.
The Manx Club, reason I have Rugged and Baofeng radios, has Licensed from the fcc these frequencies, for club events only.


MC-1 151.7000 VHF 35 watt
MC-2 151.7600 VHF 35 watt
MC-3 158.4000 VHF 110 watt
MC-4 158.4075 VHF 110 watt
MC-5 151.5125 VHF 2 watt
MC-A 464.5000 UHF 2 watt
MC-B 464.5500 UHF 2 watt

only the last 2 are GMRS I was led to believe all the list channels were GMRS.
My 1st mobile base was a rugged rm-25 which had both uhf and vhf, it burned up. Current mobile base is Rugged rm-60 VHF only, So I own a radio I do not have a license to transmit with. The way I understand this GMRS is UHF only and only 30 some odd frequencies plus @ half the FRS channels.
I have 3 handhelds 1 Rugged and 2 Baofeng.
 
I opened an email from Rugged radios just now, I usually delete them. I see 2 radios advertised, 1 mobile base 1 handheld, both are listed as Business Band. So I guess they are changing the way they do things.
 
I opened an email from Rugged radios just now, I usually delete them. I see 2 radios advertised, 1 mobile base 1 handheld, both are listed as Business Band. So I guess they are changing the way they do things.
Don't buy from them. You can get the same radio MUCH cheaper. It just won't be blue.
 
The only reason I have a rugged radio mobile base is to connect it to my head set intercom. I know they are rebadged Baofeng. Baofeng doesn't connect to inercoms
 
It could be really confusing and Rugged is a master at blurring the lines between legal and not legal. Unfortunately, they've made a lot of money on the fact of selling repackaged blue or pink Baofengs for 3 times the price or better.

Some of the confusion when talking about UHF and VHF is that you end up thinking one radio can't talk on both. In reality some can. They call them "dual band" radios.

Ripped from a google search has a good definition:
What is dual band radio?


The most popular VHF/UHF radios for FM voice and data are dual-band, meaning that they can transmit on both the 2 meter (144-148 MHz) and 70 cm (420-450 MHz) bands. Higher-end units allow you to monitor several bands at once and listen on one band while transmitting on the other.

Business bands can be either VHF or UHF too. But they work on different frequency bands than standard HAM frequencies.
VHF runs from 151 MHz to 158 MHz and UHF 464 MHz to 469 MHz.

Part of the mess comes from the FCC that makes it clear as mud to figure out. You'll see Part 90 radios and Part 95 radios. Part 95 radios are more the personal use GMRS variety that by design are locked to those frequencies. Meaning you have no way to punch in another frequency manually. Part 90 radios aren't locked down where you can manually punch in a frequency. Depending on the type of radio, they may be only able to hit the public HAM bands only, Marine only, the business band only. My dual-band mobile unit was locked out of the GMRS frequencies as it's not a part 95 radio. However in other countries where the radio sold it isn't. It was a matter of changing a setting with the programming software that unlocked it to work on it. The popular handheld Baofeng did nothing to lock out ANY frequencies on the VHF or UHF bands so anybody that gets one could program a frequency in on the Business band, Fire/police/emergency, Marine bands besides the normal Ham frequencies. So the Baofengs get a bad rap from the Ham community because anybody can possibly get on and clog up the airwaves or disrupt communications for emergency or law enforcement. An example of the disruption came up the other day.

I'm not licensed yet for Ham, but I do listen to the Colorado Connection statewide repeater network quite a bit when I'm driving my Blazer. Sunday I caught the first interaction between an unlicensed user and a regular Ham guy on the repeater. It was pretty interesting. A guy and gal talking to each other like it was a CB, no mention of a call sign. Again, this is a statewide repeater network so they may not have understood the frequency they grabbed was getting linked to a series of repeaters that was re-sending out the signal from Grand Junction to Denver, Fort Collins to Pueblo, and darn near most of the state in between. The Ham guy was pretty direct reminding them that they needed to ID themselves and that they were on the statewide repeater network. The chatter stopped right away.

There are other setups to allow the use of vehicle intercoms. Even using repurposed airplane intercom units. I think somebody here just did that for his flatfender jeep project.
 
Other radios that interface with an intercom? I looked when my dual band fried, was already weary of Rugged. My set up had 1 failure after another I think it was 4 or 5 club outings before my rig worked as designed. That was after I boxed my whole setup cables and everything and sent it to them, and make it work or ELSE, as a Manx club member with 5k potential customers world wide. Hell they even show up at some of our events to pimp their crap.
I am on my 4th push to talk button, this one I bought on Amazon and added the 3 yr insurance, I'll be getting a new one next spring more than likely. $50.00 for that POS.
At KOH this year my second head set failure. Rugged was there with giant f'n tent. I bought new head set from PCI, my new radio store, they don't offer the correct ptt button thou. PTT button didn't work at KOH but I didn't need to tx.
If I go FM mobile base in my burb it will not be Rugged.
Question are there remote mount antenna for the handhelds? the longer handheld antenna is pita in cab, and the short one lacks distance.

going have to find an Elmer in havasu, to help me figure out what I can do and what I can't.
 
I found 4 different companies offering intercom systems on a google search. They were not rugged. Rugged is not the only game in town, just the one with the biggest marketing budget.

Amazon has wide selection of remote mount antennas for Baofeng radios.
 
One thing I like about Rugged is their support for the industry. I'm frequently cost driven on my purchases, but these days finding companies that actually support our hobby seems to be getting rarer. So if I can, I like to spend my money with those places.
 
I hear you me too, but the quality is crap, I bought my 1st setup, mobile base, intercom, 2 head sets, cables, in late 2017, got it all installed early spring 2018, went to July Manx club run first occasion to use, 1 head set doesn't work. they warrantied it they at the event, but had no inventory there. Had wait for it to shipped to me after event. Next run and on small Friday run with a few buggies, we don't hear anyone talking, PTT button went hot and we were open mic, they change freqs. Then the radio burnt up, new radio more wattage, wouldn't transmit past line of sight. Had to buy a handheld to test. this is early 2019 boxed the whole mess up, including cables, that were routed under my taped roll bar padding, not fun, and sent it to them to make work. Turns out the intercom was bad now. They don't make the 1 I have anymore, so they up grade me I have to pay the difference.
You say 3 years is not bad the intercom worked, well I had not successfully transmitted to another club member ever up to this date, except the open mic incident. March run 2019 worked great 1st time no flaws. July run bad PTT button 2x. Sept run worked great. 2020 KOH worked the few times I was out with my brother using handheld. No other runs 2020,
KOH 2021 ptt button failed 3x. 2nd headset mic fail. Jully 2021 run worked great I was the sweep car on our official Saturday run, 21 buggies 57 miles 1 way in San Bernadino National Forest. Run leader could hear me well the whole day. We had 1 or 2 minor break downs, 1 of my jobs is to inform the leader, which I'm glad I was able to do. I volunteered weeks prior to sweep a run, I was nervous my radio wouldn't work and have to back out. You could say I don't trust my radio system. I had over $1000.00 in the original investment.
3 Ptt buttons 150.00, 2nd radio 375.00, upgrade intercom 80.00, 2nd headset 250.00, plus shipping to Rugged, plus retaping my roll bar padding. I'm sure I have forgotten more $$ somewhere.
Not a fan
 
MC-A 464.5000 UHF 2 watt
MC-B 464.5500 UHF 2 watt

only the last 2 are GMRS I was led to believe all the list channels were GMRS.

To clarify, 464MHz is outside of the FRS/GMRS bands. Those would be commercial frequencies licensed for that specific use, just like the VHF frequencies. So you're not using any publicly-available frequencies.
 
So GMRS is running between 462 and 467 MHz. It is the general mobile radio service. It is for public use like CB radio is but it is on the FM side of the spectrum vs CB being AM. Much like the range And clarity difference between am and fm in your car radio, GMRS benefits from the increased range and clarity FM provides.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, the increase in signal quality for GMRS is due to the higher frequency (larger bandwidth) and increased power output. It's not a function of AM vs. FM waveforms, it's a function of bandwidth. The importance of this is higher frequency transmissions need more power to travel a given distance. 100 watts in an HF band like 20-meters will send a signal around the earth. 100 watts on the 70cm band (where GMRS is) may or may not penetrate 10 miles of soggy swamp. The antenna is smaller, and the audio quality is better, but the reliability is not. It's a trade-off.


Though nearly anything is better than the hamstrung CB radios... :doah:
 
Lots of good information, lots of bad information, lots of ignorance (I don't mean that in an insulting manner - I've got a lot of ignorance here too).

There's a lot to unpack here. I feed my GMC Jimmy project with a two-way radio job, so.. might as well help.

Rugged Radios - HUGE problem here. I hate them, they are selling product that is very often illegal, very often intended to be used illegally but not advertised as such (think 'oil filter' silencers, etc etc). The radios aren't terribly good. BUT. They are the best option readily and cheaply available. The GMRS frequencies require an individual license, but that is cheap and easy.

GMRS FRS PRS CB HAM NBC CIA VHS EFI - https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/personal-radio-services-prs-keeping-touch There are a mess of different 'services', or ways you can legally transmit on a specific frequency or set of frequencies. GMRS permits 50 watts of transmitter power in the UHF 'band' (notionally anything between 400 and 500 mhz or so).

MURS is VHF (130 - 180 or so), but limited to 2 watts.

CB is AM only, limited to 12 watts in SSB mode and 4 watts normally in "Low Band" (26-27mhz).

AM - amplitude modulation. You can play with the different characteristics between AM and FM audio in a VERY LIMITED sense using your car radio. Please note that AM 'goes further' more because of the frequency than the nature of the thing. A more accurate comparison will be aircraft radios (AM in 108 - 137mhz range) vs GMRS channel 1 (462.5625 20khz 'wide' analog FM) vs FRS channel 1 (462.5625 12.5khz 'narrow' analog FM).

FM - Frequency Modulation. Where an AM radio can interpert tiny changes in signal level as noise (because the Amplitude or level of signal is where the voice audio data is encoded), FM ignores those changes. In practice, Steely Dan almost had it right - no static at all! FM also lets us play with channel width (as seen above). The 'wider' a channel, the less of them you can cram into the same frequency range. Think of King of Hammers, if everyone had two or three channels available to them, total. However, the wider a channel, the more voice data you can put into it and the better it sounds - AND the better it 'carries'.

VHF UHF Lo Band - radio frequencies exist on a spectrum, just like light. In fact, light is also part of the radio frequency spectrum. This is important because two radios have to be setup on the same frequency to talk to each other, and a VHF radio generally will not tune to UHF channels. To break it down, your Alpine in your daily driver will recieve transmissions from 88.1 MHz to 107.9 MHz (Megahertz), which gives you a good foothold in where RF stuff lives.

This bonkers complicated and almost useless PDF lists who goes where in more detail, if it doesn't crash your computer.

It's also important because different bands act differently.

CB, at 26 mhz, will 'terrain follow', bending to some extent over hills and around corners. It will also 'skip', or bounce off of parts of the atmosphere to cover colossal distances. My father had a cabin in the mountains in Alaska and would key up on CB to yell profanity at the mexican truckers he was hearing - sometimes they would yell back. Yes, the old man worked skip from Alaska to Mexico. Unfortunately, the 'fundamental length' of a CB antenna is 516 inches for a 'full' wave - not at all useful. Means a lot of compromises in antenna design to get something that can go on a rig.

VHF will terrain follow to a lot lesser extent than CB, almost never skips (it's theoretically possible, but I've never seen it IRL). VHF shines because it cruises _through_ a lot of trees and foliage and ground scrub, making it very useful IRL. The fundamental length of a VHF antenna at 151.8mhz is just about 72 inches, making the compromises in design a lot less and the antenna performance a lot better.

UHF pretty much doesn't terrain follow, and starts having problems with Green Obstacles (trees and brush). However, the fundamental length is great, at 462.5625 we're looking at just a hair over 2' for a full wave antenna!

1/2 wave, Full wave? - I talked about fundamental length earlier, that's the actual size an antenna needs to be to 'capture' the entire RF wave at a given frequency. At CB frequencies especially that's a HUGE chunk of wire. So to make a physical antenna that you buy easier to handle, we make design compromises and use a "1/2 wave" or "5/8 wave" or "1/4 wave", which are 1/2, 5/8, or 1/4 the length of the notional 'full wave' antenna. Rule of thumb is that the 1/2 wave works about twice as good as a 1/4 wave, and a 5/8 is just a little better than the 1/2 wave, but trades bandwidth (just squinting at GMRS I don't think we care about bandwidth - in this context it means multiple channels, not the 20/12.5 for any given channel).

Conclusion - the most common problems I've ever seen in two way installs (taxis, ambulances, cop cars, pilot cars, trailers, off road rigs, hand held radios, amateur radios) are NOT 1/4 wave vs 1/2 wave or using the 'wrong' band (VHF vs UHF). You're gonna have the most problems because of the following

- Power. A 50w mobile needs around 5 amps of current at full booyah. Motorola, as the 'gold standard' ships a 12 gauge wiring harness for power with their 50w radio that they tell you to connect directly to the battery. So don't run 18 gauge or plug the thing into the cigarette lighter through a 30' extension or land the ground on a self tapping screw into body steel. Run 12 gauge to a good power distribution block and a good ground, fuse at 15 amps and win.

- Physical. All the radio in the world doesn't matter if you can't hear it. Many folks don't put any thought to this and end up with the tiny little 3/4" speaker in the radio trying to overcome 650 horses worth of V8 and tons of watts of stereo and and and.. it don't work. Get the external speaker, and put the thing up where it's not hidden away. I like the ones that mount the external speaker on the back side of the driver's b pillar angled forward, pointing it directly at the driver's ear.

- Antenna. You really need a strong connection to an antenna that is the highest point on the vehicle for best performance. Rugged looks like they ship standard NMO mounts, which want a 3/4" hole in roof steel - these SHOULD have an o ring and a rubber gasket. DON'T CAULK THEM. Put some dielectric grease on the everything when you assemble and she'll be right. Mag mounts SHOULD have a plastic bottom layer and go onto roof steel. Wipe the plastic clean to get rid of chunks or dust, wipe the roof clean, thonk. Your roof needs to be bonded to ground at some point.

If you're putting the antenna on a mast or bracket on the roll cage or something, so long as the steel is grounded and the antenna is at or near the highest point, life is good.


Handhelds - The biggest problem I've seen in handhelds is that the poor radio is trying to get it's signal through 250 pounds of meat because it's on someone's hip, or it's in the cup holder of a solid steel box (like, for example, most times I use a handheld). It APPEARS that most of the rugged radio handhelds use a BNC female connector on the radio, so if you're gonna be using it in a vehicle, you can absolutely and SHOULD absolutely put a magmount antenna on the vehicle and (without crushing the cable) run it inside and plug it into the hand held. 4w is less than 50w, but getting the antenna outside the grounded steel box is HUGE. Getting that extra 4' of height also helps.

Antennas - If your antenna doesn't have a cut chart to cut it to the correct length for your 'center frequency' (the center of your normal frequencies - as your frequency gets further away from this center frequency, the performance gets worse), you need to either hit up the manufacturer, or get a watt meter and start figuring. 465.14375 is the center of GMRS

If your antenna just got smeared off by an overhang or a garage door, could I interest you in https://sti-co.com/project/flexi-whip-antennas/ instead? 7" of pokey pokey flexible enough to smear completely over in about 1" of length without breaking, and sturdy enough to do it for years. My favorite use of these is on underground haul trucks in a gold mine - they just bend over and laugh when the truck smears a corner underground, where anything 'normal' was shredding mag mounts and getting broken.

and the big problem.. Everyone in your crew has to be on the same frequency and same transmission type (AM vs FM, Analog vs Digital) to talk to each other. Test that before you roll out, charge your batteries, and keep your antennas overhead.
 
Great info there, am thinking I need to check the ground on my dune buggy roll bar, and up the power wire. It has a rugged vhf 50 watt mobile radio, a rugged intercom and now we use PCI headsets, everything rugged is on it's second unit. Rugged products are crap, I am on my 4th ptt button 2nd intercom and radio unit. I have one of their handhelds, is the only Rugged product that is any good.

I am interested in the STICO antenna you you linked for my Burb with a hand held, but can't a place to buy, I don't want to email some high end radio company that services civil and corporate America,
So if you know of a web site I can order it and have delivered otherwise I look for a different mag mount antenna
 
We get ours from Tessco.com , I found 'em on Amazon also. Not happy your Ruggeds are crapping out on ya - I hope they're at least supporting you. If I had to build up a couple radios and some headsets I'd be looking at Motorola radios and probably Firecom or Sonetics on the headset / intercom side, but none of those products are in the slightest anything approaching cheap.
 

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