apache
1/2 ton status
My 84 has one and the lines are lookin pretty questionable. In 35 years of Chevy trucks and towing this is the first Chevy/350 thats had one,is there a particular reason this needs it and is it really necessary?
CK5
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K5 Oil cooler question
- Thread starter apache
- Start date
Anything you can do to reduce temps is always good. It doesn't matter if we're talking about coolant temp, oil temp or trans temp, it's all a help in the long run. MANY vehicles came without oil cooler for many years so eliminating it won't hurt BUT if you tow with this vehicle i would recommend leaving it.
Like Scott said, things last longer the cooler they run. The first thing I've always done was put a trans cooler on any vehicle I bought. My GN and my Burb came with an oil cooler, so I didn'y have to put one on.
Tarey
Tarey
Why Atf Wears Out
An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through friction: the friction of the fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when the clutch plates engage, and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their loads.
It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to heat up once the vehicle is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175 degrees F., which is the usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to operate. If fluid temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost indefinitely -- say up to 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the life of the fluid begins to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid temperatures well beyond safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and takes on a smell like burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and friction characteristics, varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body) which interferes with the operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250 degrees F., rubber seals begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher temperatures the transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even more. Eventually the clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way to repair the damage now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of $1500 on a late model front-wheel drive car or minivan.
As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating temperature above 175 degrees F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000 miles. At 220 degrees, which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is only good for about 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000 miles. Add another 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or 300 degrees F., and 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission burns up.
If you think this is propaganda put forth by the suppliers of ATF to sell more fluid, think again. According to the Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association, 90% of ALL transmission failures are caused by overheating. And most of these can be blamed on worn out fluid that should have been replaced.
On most vehicles, the automatic transmission fluid is cooled by a small heat exchanger inside the bottom or end tank of the radiator. Hot ATF from the transmission circulates through a short loop of pipe and is thus "cooled." Cooling is a relative term here, however, because the radiator itself may be running at anywhere from 180 to 220 degrees F.!
Tests have shown that the typical original equipment oil cooler is marginal at best. ATF that enters the radiator cooler at 300 degrees F. leaves at 240 to 270 degrees F., which is only a 10 to 20% drop in temperature, and is nowhere good enough for extended fluid life.
Any number of things can push ATF temperatures beyond the system's ability to maintain safe limits: towing a trailer, mountain driving, driving at sustained high speeds during hot weather, stop-and-go driving in city traffic, "rocking" an automatic transmission from drive to reverse to free a tire from mud or snow, etc. Problems in the cooling system itself such as a low coolant level, a defective cooling fan, fan clutch, thermostat or water pump, an obstructed radiator, etc., will also diminish ATF cooling efficiency. In some cases, transmission overheating can even lead to engine coolant overheating! That's why there's a good demand for auxiliary add-on transmission coolers.
Auxiliary Cooling
An auxiliary transmission fluid cooler is easy to install and can substantially lower fluid operating temperatures. The plate/fin type cooler is somewhat more efficient than the tube and fin design, but either can lower fluid temperatures anywhere from 80 to 140 degrees when installed in series with the stock unit. Typical cooling efficiencies run in the 35 to 50% range.
Atf Fluid Types
What kind of automatic transmission fluid should you use in your transmission? The type specified in your owner's manual or printed on the transmission dipstick.
For older Ford automatics and certain imports, Type "F" is usually required. Most Fords since the 1980s require "Mercon" fluid, which is Ford's equivalent of Dexron II.
For General Motors, Chrysler and other imports, Dexron II is usually specified.
NOTE: Some newer vehicles with electronically-controlled transmissions require Dexron IIe or Dexron III fluid. GM says its new long-life Dexron III fluid can be substituted for Dexron II in older vehicle applications.
CAUTION: Using the wrong type of fluid can affect the way the transmission shifts and feels. Using Type F fluid in an application that calls for Dexron II may make the transmission shift too harshly. Using Dexron II in a transmission that requires Type F may allow the transmission to slip under heavy load, which can accelerate clutch wear.
An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through friction: the friction of the fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when the clutch plates engage, and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their loads.
It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to heat up once the vehicle is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175 degrees F., which is the usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to operate. If fluid temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost indefinitely -- say up to 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the life of the fluid begins to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid temperatures well beyond safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and takes on a smell like burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and friction characteristics, varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body) which interferes with the operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250 degrees F., rubber seals begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher temperatures the transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even more. Eventually the clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way to repair the damage now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of $1500 on a late model front-wheel drive car or minivan.
As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating temperature above 175 degrees F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000 miles. At 220 degrees, which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is only good for about 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000 miles. Add another 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or 300 degrees F., and 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission burns up.
If you think this is propaganda put forth by the suppliers of ATF to sell more fluid, think again. According to the Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association, 90% of ALL transmission failures are caused by overheating. And most of these can be blamed on worn out fluid that should have been replaced.
On most vehicles, the automatic transmission fluid is cooled by a small heat exchanger inside the bottom or end tank of the radiator. Hot ATF from the transmission circulates through a short loop of pipe and is thus "cooled." Cooling is a relative term here, however, because the radiator itself may be running at anywhere from 180 to 220 degrees F.!
Tests have shown that the typical original equipment oil cooler is marginal at best. ATF that enters the radiator cooler at 300 degrees F. leaves at 240 to 270 degrees F., which is only a 10 to 20% drop in temperature, and is nowhere good enough for extended fluid life.
Any number of things can push ATF temperatures beyond the system's ability to maintain safe limits: towing a trailer, mountain driving, driving at sustained high speeds during hot weather, stop-and-go driving in city traffic, "rocking" an automatic transmission from drive to reverse to free a tire from mud or snow, etc. Problems in the cooling system itself such as a low coolant level, a defective cooling fan, fan clutch, thermostat or water pump, an obstructed radiator, etc., will also diminish ATF cooling efficiency. In some cases, transmission overheating can even lead to engine coolant overheating! That's why there's a good demand for auxiliary add-on transmission coolers.
Auxiliary Cooling
An auxiliary transmission fluid cooler is easy to install and can substantially lower fluid operating temperatures. The plate/fin type cooler is somewhat more efficient than the tube and fin design, but either can lower fluid temperatures anywhere from 80 to 140 degrees when installed in series with the stock unit. Typical cooling efficiencies run in the 35 to 50% range.
Atf Fluid Types
What kind of automatic transmission fluid should you use in your transmission? The type specified in your owner's manual or printed on the transmission dipstick.
For older Ford automatics and certain imports, Type "F" is usually required. Most Fords since the 1980s require "Mercon" fluid, which is Ford's equivalent of Dexron II.
For General Motors, Chrysler and other imports, Dexron II is usually specified.
NOTE: Some newer vehicles with electronically-controlled transmissions require Dexron IIe or Dexron III fluid. GM says its new long-life Dexron III fluid can be substituted for Dexron II in older vehicle applications.
CAUTION: Using the wrong type of fluid can affect the way the transmission shifts and feels. Using Type F fluid in an application that calls for Dexron II may make the transmission shift too harshly. Using Dexron II in a transmission that requires Type F may allow the transmission to slip under heavy load, which can accelerate clutch wear.
apache
1/2 ton status
Thats some good bits on trannies and fluid, and I agree 110% but I was refering specifically to engine oil coolers. My concern is as internals are designed to run at a certain temp from a metalurgy and oiling stand point. My K5 in summer runs just above 165/170 on the gauge and here lately pulling a several mile grade in our 105 degree weather it actually will hit 195 on the gauge, running a new 195 thermo and radiator etc. Granted the gauges are pretty schetchy at best ,but the week in death valley had the same results moreless. Winter here is in the upper teens and 20ies often it dosent ever warm up even on my 40 mile commute to work. I dont beleive these are thermo controlled in any way either and thought it might be doing more bad than good.
Just for reference, i run an Autometer mechanical oil temp gauge (mounted in the oil pan) and i have the factory oil cooler and the temp runs consistently at 180*. I am TBI so there is a 195* t-stat in the engine and if you use a cooler t-stat you might find that the oil also runs a little cooler as well.
If you are running cold in the teens/twenties, you've got something wrong, like your thermostat. If it's 195*, once warmed up it should NEVER go under that temperature, and those ambient temps are nowhere near cold enough to cause problems with the heater.
Assuming your heater is working right (blend doors, etc) and your coolant is truly staying colder than what the t-stat is rated for, you have a bad t-stat.
Post was about oil coolers, as with anything it needs to warm up, but not too much. Are these lines plain rubber or the braided steel lines?
The rubber ones are pretty bad about leaking from where the fittings are crimped, but typically only if someone starts moving them around. The braided ones seem to last a lot longer with no leaks from the same area. Mine just leak at the fitting into the oiil filter adapter.
Assuming your heater is working right (blend doors, etc) and your coolant is truly staying colder than what the t-stat is rated for, you have a bad t-stat.
Post was about oil coolers, as with anything it needs to warm up, but not too much. Are these lines plain rubber or the braided steel lines?
The rubber ones are pretty bad about leaking from where the fittings are crimped, but typically only if someone starts moving them around. The braided ones seem to last a lot longer with no leaks from the same area. Mine just leak at the fitting into the oiil filter adapter.
If his is like mine, he has hard lines. I'd replace the hard lines with braided steel and keep the cooler.
Or sell/use it as a tranny cooler (I have a spare stock oil cooler, so I plan to run one of each).
Or sell/use it as a tranny cooler (I have a spare stock oil cooler, so I plan to run one of each).
Hard lines, as in steel? I've seen nothing other than rubber or braided stainless. Of course there are sections of steel on these, but maybe half.
I'd like to see pics of the setup if so!
I'd like to see pics of the setup if so!
apache
1/2 ton status
Off the top of my head the lines in my 84 are about 50/50 rubber inner/with outer braided cover, and the metal sections and fittings look like aluminum,there are also the factory ones. I will leave it intact but still question a few things on temps. This is the second 195 thermo and with either iin service using two different infared temp guns shooting the thermo housing top after a quick pullover going down the freeway it pretty much says 180. I wondered if this has any impact on the open/closed ECM/computer carb controls if this is possible with this system.
Temp will read colder on the radiator hose side of the t-stat. Aim your infared gun at the driver side head where the temp sender is or at the intake manifold just behind the t-stat housing for a true reading.
loafer
1/2 ton status
Yes, those are what I consider the "failure prone" ones, although really, with hot engine oil going through them, underhood, for their entire life, their longevity is probably pretty admirable.
In my limited experience though, I've had more leaking problems with the rubber style pictured, than the braided stainless GM used earlier.
In my limited experience though, I've had more leaking problems with the rubber style pictured, than the braided stainless GM used earlier.
That is what mine look like too. I forgot that the hard lines turned to rubber before going through the crossmember.
I just noticed however that those appear to be the Saginaw style o-ring fittings. The earlier are simply flare fittings, and flares suck comparatively. Mine leak in that location. Fairly certain earlier are steel instead of AL as well, but I'll have to pay attention next time I'm under there.
4xcrazy
3/4 ton status
not sure how early your referring to, mine on the '89 Burb are that way as pictured above, hardline up against the motor, and rubber from the motor to the cooler (obviously needs to flex) and also the lines on the '94 pick-up are this way too.
o-rings on both, neither have ever leaked yet.
it just seems weird to me, to remove something that is there for a good reason just because of a leaky seal or something, replace the seal and all should be fine, but i guess in the colder climates it's not really that big of an issue, however out here in the Arizona heat, i run coolers on everything i can.
o-rings on both, neither have ever leaked yet.
it just seems weird to me, to remove something that is there for a good reason just because of a leaky seal or something, replace the seal and all should be fine, but i guess in the colder climates it's not really that big of an issue, however out here in the Arizona heat, i run coolers on everything i can.
Problem with those lines is that similar to AC or PS, the rubber hardens, and working it in removal tends to cause it to crack/separate at the crimp, and then they leak.
The o-ring seals are great, they handle pressure very well.
Earlier must have been 70's and early 80's at best. Only two I've ever seen, braided, or rubber as pictured. Just never noticed the o-ring fittings before.
The o-ring seals are great, they handle pressure very well.
Earlier must have been 70's and early 80's at best. Only two I've ever seen, braided, or rubber as pictured. Just never noticed the o-ring fittings before.
4xcrazy
3/4 ton status
understand what you're saying, but also though, as with any of the hose assemblies on an engine, yeah, they're rubber, you already know they are going to eventually wear out and leak.
Personally though, if, or better, WHEN it does start to leak i personally still think it's better to just repair the issue, instead of worrying about removing a bunch of equipment, get the hoses replaced, and maybe with something better like you mention with the braided steel hose,,, which i most likely will do as well in the near future.
just my opinion though, the oil cooler is a good thing to have, i wouldn't go removing equipment meant to help with adding life to an engine.
Personally though, if, or better, WHEN it does start to leak i personally still think it's better to just repair the issue, instead of worrying about removing a bunch of equipment, get the hoses replaced, and maybe with something better like you mention with the braided steel hose,,, which i most likely will do as well in the near future.
just my opinion though, the oil cooler is a good thing to have, i wouldn't go removing equipment meant to help with adding life to an engine.
While I agree and wouldn't pull an oil cooler off myself. GM designed these trucks to tow while loaded to GWVR from Death Valley to Alaska. If you live in a colder climate, you'd probly be fine without one. However I'd keep it to give myself a little extra margin in case something goes wrong with some other part of the cooling system when out away from civilization.
Which is why my truck has one.
I'm just comparing the two stock setups. Both the rubber and braided setups have their strengths and weaknesses.
