Lets talk about Echobit...

[thatK30guy]

I want to know specifics about this name/business and what exactly happened to its demise.

How many of these brackets made it out into circulation, roughly?

What was Mike charging for them? How was his turnaround rate? How did he ship them? Thru who? Did he overprice them? Was his quality good? What could be made better to improve them?

Whats to protect me from anything legal against Mike, customers, liability from other users due to improper installations, etc., etc.? You gotta remember, this would not become my fulltime job as I already have one. This would be a part-time hobby and I wouldn't want to be bombarded with payments where the supply couldn't be met. I was planning to cut a sheet at a time and sell all those before starting another sheet.

Was the Echobit name copyrighted or trademarked? If not, would I be able to use the name solely for the purpose of selling these brackets? And without hassle from Mike, too? I've Googled the name and its a pretty common truck part name, so it would be easy to keep the name going but with a new owner/fabricator, I wouldn't want to be stuck with the past history of it.

Any other ideas or tips would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind, nothing is set in stone yet as I will be fabbing at least two sets just to experiment at first.

 

[pauly383]

I would seach for a patent , and use a new name , maybe involve us and lets vote on the name .

As for business practice , take orders only for what you have and have a waiting list for each batch , and only take money when batch is complete .

Liability is one thing I know nothing about , but a blanket disclaimer , with wording about you do not install it if you have no ability , and you take no responsibility for anyone not learning to drive is a good start .

And heres the good part for us :

You need to procure Vendor member status

 

[AJMBLAZER]

Well...I know you have a lawyer...if you're on good terms you might want to ask some questions.

 

[dyeager535]

All I've gotta say is, if you plan to sell ANYTHING, you need to do a lot of research and studying of business, if you think it's something you could make some money off of. Probably a bit different since you already have another job, but not naming any names, this board alone has had TONS of "companies" come and go (and in hiatus lol) because of what I perceived to be poor planning and business practices.

I would *think* when dealing with people in this hobby, that if you are selling something, but don't have a steady supply, you will end up shooting yourself in the foot. Most people aren't willing or can't wait for parts, if your reputation ends up being "he makes good parts, but you may have to wait a month or more" then you probably won't sell many. I doubt many people would plan their modifications on your schedule of production, and if they can't count on the product being available, why would they even consider it? That would be a pretty ugly disclaimer.

It does sound like you are trying to do your homework, but people are probably not going to be horribly willing to give you ideas to allow you to succeed where they failed. And if they know why they failed, you'd think they'd try again.

Yes, these are my opinions, but I wouldn't even consider going into business until I had really done some research. Like I said, there are plenty of examples to learn from on this site.

 

[AJMBLAZER]

Speaking from an experience I had almost 2 years ago...

...people will wait if you tell them up front, "I'm one guy doing this, I sell them a batch at a time, you can't beat the price or the quality, please bear with me."

There's this guy on a Suzuki 4x4 forum I read who started making 2" coil spacer lift kits for '99+ Suzuki Grand Vitaras and Chevy Trackers (and their family members). UHD plastic spacers, bump stop extenders, all the hardware, front strut brace spacers, rear shocks, etc etc etc.
He made a few and installed them on his buddies on the forum's rides and then sold a few more to some of the more knowledgeable members. The kit got good reviews and being new, had some bugs that he was working on. Price was decent and MUCH less than anything else on the market at the time.

Then he starts selling them to anyone on the forums...

...and sorta got lost in it. Tool problems, supply problems, had to move, laziness, stupidity, and oh yeah, VERY poor communication skills.

I started asking for my money back after over 2 months and finally it all showed up...with no instructions. With the help of others I finally got it installed on the wife's GV.
Others waited months before their stuff finally showed up.
Product support was practically nil and horrible when he actually replied on the forum, replied to PM's or emails, or phone calls the few times folks got a hold of him. He was from western Canada but you'd think the guy spoke Croation or something as a first language his typing, grammar, and speech was so bad.
Finally he sorta disappeared from the forums and we pretty much steered folks away from him.
He keeps showing up claiming to be making headers, turbo setups, cat-back exhausts, etc but no one bites.


Moral of the story...don't get in over your head, cover your ass, ANSWER QUESTIONS INTELLIGIBLY, and advise folks that you aren't a big business or anything.

 

[Element]

I'd have to agree with dyeager on the intermittent supply causing low sales.

One way you could do it, and it's been done by companies that I know of (offhand, Adire was well known for doing it) was to take orders for a month, and at the end of the month, make a single production run for the orders they had received. I think they also limited the amount of orders per run, so people couldn't mob them the day before production with orders....you could order early in the month and pretty much be assured your product, or gamble and order late in the month, shortening the wait time (although it's really the same, if you think about it) but increasing the odds of not getting what you wanted.

I'd imagine you could take orders for a 3-week span each month, and if you needed to put a limit (and make it very obvious what the limit was to lower disgruntled potential buyers) on orders, do that; then, take a week to fab everything up, box it all, and send it out in one large batch. Then, beginning of the next week, start taking orders again.

A lot of people seem to get easily annoyed if they have to wait for parts, but hell, some of the best parts on my car were the ones I waited a while for.

 

[thatK30guy]

All of these replies are the little things that add up and make me afraid to tackle something like this flip job. Namely because I don't ever want to leave this site and never want to create hardships with anyone here. Honestly, I'm not real sure or positive I want to make a bunch of these brackets to sell for the world. Maybe just make enough to sell to the members here only. Period. If someone else on another board don't like me making them everyone here and he wants some, tough luck. I don't know. Just something to think about. I'm just more afraid of losing you guys than I am customers.

 

[AJMBLAZER]

That's definitely a valid concern.

I've seen a couple guys over on PavementSucks.com either start businesses or bring their businesses onto that forum and then find they can't support the volume of business/low prices they offered. One guy lost his actual business because of it and how far behind he got.

Oh yeah, don't take anyone's money if you can't deliver the part for a while. That always seems to bite people in the ass the most.

 

[Element]

All of these replies are the little things that add up and make me afraid to tackle something like this flip job. Namely because I don't ever want to leave this site and never want to create hardships with anyone here. Honestly, I'm not real sure or positive I want to make a bunch of these brackets to sell for the world. Maybe just make enough to sell to the members here only. Period. If someone else on another board don't like me making them everyone here and he wants some, tough luck. I don't know. Just something to think about. I'm just more afraid of losing you guys than I am customers.

I think if you make it very painfully apparent when you start that supplies could be very limited and you can't produce these as fast as an actual fab shop, and that it might take some time to send the kit out once you get an order for it, it'd work ok.

 

[dyeager535]

Oh yeah, don't take anyone's money if you can't deliver the part for a while. That always seems to bite people in the ass the most.

And that's a HUGE one right there. This is why GM quit making the Camaro. You heard all sorts of people whining about them quitting production, but those people didn't buy the cars! If they were, the car would have been a success the entire time. You see that here too, people saying they want something, but when the time comes to pony up...

If you can afford the materials and time you invest, then take orders from people, wait that month or so, make it, then contact the people. BUT there is nothing saying those people are obliged to buy from you after you've invested your time and money. And what's to say that they have money at the time, or their situation hasn't changed, and so on. That would also create some bad blood, especially if you were dealing with people ONLY from this site. When you start talking about limited availability, then you start talking about time, and time allows for problems.

 

[AJMBLAZER]

I guess I should clarify myself.

Don't take money from folks if you have no clue when it will be done.

You tell me a month and it'll be done and I will have no problem paying you for something in advance. Heck, email me and say there's been problems and I'll wait longer.

Gimme some pie in the sky date months from now or a vague idea on the time frame and yeah...not giving you my money. The Suzuki guy's problem was his "month or so" turned into almost 6 months by the time it was all over and he vanished.

 

[thatK30guy]

I'd never take payments for something that wasn't done nor in the "month from now" timeframe either.

I'd fab up all the pieces so I KNOW what I have in stock and on hand and then sell them. Once the parts run dry, no more payments til the next batch is made, completely finished, before taking payments again.

And I'd do a disclaimer that I would only make them in batches. If someone had a problem with that, I wouldn't be to blame because I didn't take any payment from them. Nor would I have misled them into thinking of a certain timeframe of completion.

This is a very tricky and touchy subject at hand right now.

 

[jonathanjay743]

Im a business owner & the bottom line is if you tell your customers your going to do something do it. I don't sell fabbed off-road parts, but the same rules apply. Keep good communication with your clients. Keep your expenses low (pretty easy to do with no overhead). Im not trying to make this post into business 101, but if you have the desire I say do it. If you have enough demand & protect yourself legally you'll enjoy alot of success. I can just say from my experience the risk for me was well worth the reward.

 

[BGKYK5]

The best disclaimer I ever read was Carroll Smith's disclaimer at the beginning of all of his "XXXX to Win" books. I don't know if it is any good from a legal standpoint, but I love how he words it.

Make sure you cover yourself legally from every angle. Think about hair dryers that come with a warning not to use them in the shower. Some people are huge idiots and want to take it out on somebody else when they do something incredibly stupid and unforeseeable. I hope you do go for it, but I'd hate for it to end badly for you. A couple hours with a lawer should do it.

 

[4by4bygod]

I want to know specifics about this name/business and what exactly happened to its demise.

How many of these brackets made it out into circulation, roughly?

What was Mike charging for them? How was his turnaround rate? How did he ship them? Thru who? Did he overprice them? Was his quality good? What could be made better to improve them?

Whats to protect me from anything legal against Mike, customers, liability from other users due to improper installations, etc., etc.? You gotta remember, this would not become my fulltime job as I already have one. This would be a part-time hobby and I wouldn't want to be bombarded with payments where the supply couldn't be met. I was planning to cut a sheet at a time and sell all those before starting another sheet.

Was the Echobit name copyrighted or trademarked? If not, would I be able to use the name solely for the purpose of selling these brackets? And without hassle from Mike, too? I've Googled the name and its a pretty common truck part name, so it would be easy to keep the name going but with a new owner/fabricator, I wouldn't want to be stuck with the past history of it.

Any other ideas or tips would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind, nothing is set in stone yet as I will be fabbing at least two sets just to experiment at first.

Just a few random thoughts...set up a company as an LLC, so you have some protection in case somebody ever wants to sue you for whatever reason..this way, they can't take your house.. set up a credit card merchant account, ( maybe you've got paypal already, not sure )..in any event, keep the monies in a sperate account from your regular funds, so you can write everything off, and you'll look like a real business in the eyes of the IRS, and not some hobbyist scamming the government.

What about the idea of taking non refundable deposits for each order, before you start work on them.. this way you don't get stuck totally if a guy changes his mind after placing the order. maybe when you get an order, you send a "memorandum of understanding" that asks for a credit card number, with the understanding that you charge whatever percentage up front, with the remaining balance due being processed upon receipt of product. And don't move on the order till you get an emailed response giving you the green light.

As far as explaining lead times, and how long it takes to get stuff made, and resolving issues. open communication goes a long way to smoothing any ruffled feathers. everyone understands circumstances, but folks get hyper pissed when they feel a vendor is hiding and being sneaky..

Before I became a vendor here, I thought long and hard about it, and concluded that it was worth whatever hassles might arise, and there really haven't been any. First off, I know what my stuff does, and that it always works... second, I just treat you guys like I do my fleet customers - open commuication, being a resource for information, and moving mountains when necessary..couple that with my resolve to not let anyone down, and being a vendor here remains a positive experience.

I guess I would just say that if you want to bring a quality product to market that needs it, jump in, the water's fine..you'll be rewarded. one good thing is that you're a known quantity here, so if you had some growing pains, you'd have an eaier time of it than some other schlub would, who just joined and wanted to take everyone's money..

just my two cents.

 

[slyguy_22]

I too own my own business and communication is # 1! Not sure i would go through the trouble of setting up an LLC though. I think i would just setup a disclaimer based on if you purchase this item you (the purchaser) assume all risks involved with operating a lifted vehicle and that the manufacture is not liable. BTW i didn't see anyone list what they were selling for before. im assuming that this is a $100.00 or less part?

 

[dyeager535]

I would think an LLC would almost be a necessity. Someone sues him personally, everything he owns is fair game. LLC, the company is where the money would come from, so his personal life (since he has a separate job) would stay that way.

At least that's how I understand it, and since this is a product that someone could conceivably come to harm while using (doesn't matter if the part is really the reason they got hurt) I think you'd be rightfully concerned to protect your assets.

 

[HarryH3]

I too own my own business and communication is # 1! Not sure i would go through the trouble of setting up an LLC though. I think i would just setup a disclaimer based on if you purchase this item you (the purchaser) assume all risks involved with operating a lifted vehicle and that the manufacture is not liable. BTW i didn't see anyone list what they were selling for before. im assuming that this is a $100.00 or less part?

This is VERY bad advice. Without an LLC, you are PERSONALLY responsible for the products and services that you provide. If someone decides to sue, they can take your house, offices, bank accounts, etc. When you set up as an LLC (AND keep the proper records) then they would only have access to the assets of the LLC. The price of the product doesn't matter. Liability is virtually unlimited. Remember the millions of dollars that McDonalds lost in the infamous coffee case? The coffee itself only cost about a buck...

Disclaimers aren't worth the paper that they're printed on if someone hires a good lawyer.

Perhaps cbbr can provide the legal mumbo jumbo for us here?

You can setup an LLC for a few hundred bucks. Perhaps you'll never get sued, but why chance it when the cost of protecting your personal assets is so cheap?

 

[scrappyk5]

I want to know specifics about this name/business and what exactly happened to its demise.

How many of these brackets made it out into circulation, roughly?

What was Mike charging for them? How was his turnaround rate? How did he ship them? Thru who? Did he overprice them? Was his quality good? What could be made better to improve them?

Whats to protect me from anything legal against Mike, customers, liability from other users due to improper installations, etc., etc.? You gotta remember, this would not become my fulltime job as I already have one. This would be a part-time hobby and I wouldn't want to be bombarded with payments where the supply couldn't be met. I was planning to cut a sheet at a time and sell all those before starting another sheet.

Was the Echobit name copyrighted or trademarked? If not, would I be able to use the name solely for the purpose of selling these brackets? And without hassle from Mike, too? I've Googled the name and its a pretty common truck part name, so it would be easy to keep the name going but with a new owner/fabricator, I wouldn't want to be stuck with the past history of it.

Any other ideas or tips would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind, nothing is set in stone yet as I will be fabbing at least two sets just to experiment at first.

Well my own opinion is not as nice as others,

To start off with, there is alot of people who were ripped off by "Echobit"
a few years ago including me. That means if that name "POPS" back up, alot of people are gonna be thinking you are the original company. which might not be a way to start off. Then that might make it rough for you to get things going. Then once you have explained yourself to about a coulpe hundred people, there will be ones who dont believe you and they might tell everyone else to watch out.
As far as costs goes, he made a few items i am not sure of the prices but the shackle flip was $93.00 shipped

 

[jonathanjay743]

X4 on the LLC. If your in business you gotta have some type of protection that seperates your personal assets from business assets. Their are many other benefits including tax write-offs. For business its just what you need. Someone else mentioned dropping the "Echobit" name, after seeing the reputation of that company I would drop that name. It just would help your company to distance yourself from it. You sound like a credible person just go off your reputation & follow through. After you've proven yourself (if you do decide to do this) people will give you more positive feedback.