Link Suspension Set-ups

[Paxx]

Ok so I am figuring out my set-up now and have been talking to a few companies about what set-up to run. The work is being done by Evolution Machine & Fabrication, the same company that helped build the White Knight.

They recommended using a radius arm design. They are currently doing this set-up on a k5 in their shop right now. I was told this set-up would be ideal for removing almost all the bumpsteer from the system.

Now I also spoke with ORD and NWF who both recommended using a three link system due to the binding that would be created using the radius system.

The rear all companies said four link but I honestly can't remember which type of four link each recommended.


What I was hoping for was a basic explanation of each system with pictures. I have a very difficult time visualizing these things without something to look at. Also any input from members as to what they have used with success or without would be great.

I plan on using this truck for everything. I guess the best way to describe it's use would be for tough truck challenges. Mud, rocks, trails, high speed. I realize that there is certain types that work better for each type but I want the one with the least compromises. I will also be using 14" coilovers front and 16" rear.

And one last thing is I would appreciate it if we could keep this thread not overly technical. I find a lot of this info can go right over my head without an engineering degree.

Thanks alot for the help guys
~Max

 

[Paxx]

ttt

 

[Paxx]

well i'll try this again ttt

 

[jekbrown]

for linked suspensions tech, search over on pirate... there are hundreds (thousands?) of rigs over there with links as opposed to what... a dozen on ck5? I'd like to link the front of my K5 someday.... Prolly go 3 link like the ck5 tech article.

j

 

[marv_springer]

Well..... I'll play.

They recommended using a radius arm design. They are currently doing this set-up on a k5 in their shop right now. I was told this set-up would be ideal for removing almost all the bumpsteer from the system.

I would go w/ what the shop doing the mods recommends. If you wish to go another route, it may be better to find another shop. The reason I say this is because all fabricators have their preferrences... an most are good at setting up what they like to fab. For the front (I assume thats what you're talkin' about here) I actually prefer a 3 link to the radius arm design. I will say that the James Duff long arm stuff for Broncos works well and may be used for some design ideas if you choose to go that way. With either system, if the Track bar is set up properly - you won't have any bumpsteer.

Now I also spoke with ORD and NWF who both recommended using a three link system due to the binding that would be created using the radius system.

Agreed....

The rear all companies said four link but I honestly can't remember which type of four link each recommended.

As mentioned, PBB has lotta info on a rear 4 link. Several guys around here are running good setups. Look at Fox's new rig, Brandon's Buggy, Watsons "Wally", Willyswanter's wheelbase monster, and others for ideas....

What I was hoping for was a basic explanation of each system with pictures.

Here's a single triangulated 4 link. Pretty good system, but has too much Rear Steer and AS. It worked well in the dunes, but in the rocks it tended to wheelie over too much....

Here's an "unconventional" 3 link w/ track bar - using 2 uppers and 1 lower link. I've seen others use this setup in the front, but I've seen nobody else use it in the rear like this one is....

3 link/trackbar systems are gaining popularity lately.... Mostly cuz of moonbuggy influence. But they have a huge advantage over a XX or |\/| 4 link - which is that the track bar (and therefore roll center) can be set higher. My little "Marvzda" is extremely stable on side hills because of this.

Here's a parallel 4 link w/ track bar on the front. This system worked well..!

And here's the rear of the same truck (Juanblazer's)....One interesting thing about Juan's rear was that the uppers were dramatically shorter than the lowers - and the IC of the rear links when viewed from the side was actually behind the rear axle... This was the first time I had seen such a setup and it performed really well....

Also any input from members as to what they have used with success or without would be great.

This suggestion may not be popular - but especially if budget becomes an issue - consider staying w/ a good set of leaf springs up front.... It's hard to beat a good set of leafs for good flex at a reasonable cost while taking care of steering and locating issues in the simplest way. Here's an example of a pro-built (Campbell Enterprises) super buggy that still maintians leafs up front...

Marv

 

[Paxx]

Hey thanks alot for the info. I appreciate the pics and the descriptions.

For the record I have posted up on pirate as well as bc4x4.com
The post has been up on all the sites for a few days and I haven't any feedback until now. The problem of searching on pirate is that 99% of the people there are into rockcrawling and not the all around type of wheeling I am looking for the answer to. Thats why I was hoping to get a specific response for my application.

Again thanks for the response and if anyone else can add to this please post up!

 

[sled_dog]

personally I just searched and read and read and read posts about 4 links and built it how I felt it should be done after that. Is it right? damned if I know its my first one. I'll let you know when she hits the trails. I built it for all around not just crawling, axle wrap sucks.

Mines a double triangulated XX with coils. For comparison to some others posted. My upper links about 3 or 4" longer than my lowers. Its really amazing what you can do different with a suspension and come out with similar results. Heck my teachers at school thought I was stupid ending up with longer upper links. When it flexed out and had little rear steer and flexed like it did, they didn't say a word

 

[yeild2me]

When I built my first one on the rear of my old S-10 Hybrid, I got most of the info from threads on Pirate, but the article Fred Williams had in 4wheel drive and Offroad, was alot of help also.

I you were doing this yourself, I would suggest drawing it out on graph paper with the properties you want (AS, link length, etc.) then go to your truck and start compromising. Then build it, then change it if you dont get it exactly like you want it.

The single triangulated ( IVI ) is what I have on the front and rear of my S-15 Jimmy. I kinda wish I would of done a 3 link with a track bar in the front because of its steering characteristics (that plus it has pinion brakes, full time 4wd, detroit front/welded rear, full hydro steering, and who knows if the alignment is even close).

The radius style in the front I am not to sure about, but like Marv said, go with what ever the shop suggests. I can (seriously) whip out a single triangulated 4 link system in a very short amount of time because of the ones I have built. The others I have no exp. with and would have to research in depth to build.

Good luck and post up some pics of the progress!!!

Rob

 

[Paxx]

I have a quick question for you guys. NWF recommended a three link with a panhard bar. As far as I knew the panhard bar was a part of the steering not the suspension. Could someone please clear up for me what exactly this is and what it is used for. I am pretty much a complete noob when it comes to this type of suspension stuff but I need to learn so bear with me

 

[Greg72]

Paxx,

You might also want to try the CoG forum here...

I asked a lot of these questions originally, and it led me to develop a little "teaching tool" called ExcelCAD.

I learn a lot better visually, so I wanted a tool that would let me play with different designs and see graphically how changes affect the overall design.

You can download it free from www.gregblanchette.com

It's pretty simple to use, and if you have questions lots of people here (including myself) can help you. Ultimately, you only need to provide 18 pieces of data to create a design (pretty simple compared to most packages)

The more you understand (even if you aren't building it yourself) the better you will be at asking questions....and it will help you to understand if the shop you're working with really knows as much about link suspensions as they claim....

 

[stallion85]

Max, are you doing this to your K5 or with a new vehicle?


What a great response from Marv, lots of good info!

 

[marv_springer]

three link with a panhard bar - Could someone please clear up for me what exactly this is and what it is used for.

My Marvzda rear is the best example I've got pics of.... Here's a couple more images:

In this 1st one, you can see all 3 links if you look closely. The 2 uppers are 1/4 el. leaf packs, and the lower one is just left of the d-shaft (which is painted red in this photo...) Also you get a clear look at the track bar which is the curvy black bar running from frame on driver's side to top of axle on pass side.

This one is when I got it running... Again, you can see the lower link (close to center and left of the angled black d-shaft). You also get a decent view of where the track bar connects to the frame on the driver's side.

So as it applies to the front of your truck, you'd either have 2 lowers/1 upper or 2 upppers/1 lower, and a track bar that is close to in length and parallel to your draglink. One thing I've learned - Overbuild the frame mount of the track bar... You'd be surprised how much force goes thru these things...

Marv

 

[Paxx]

ok so the panhard bar is the same thing as a track bar then? I knew what the track bar was all about I just didn't know it was the same thing.

And Jeff yeah this is all happening on my k5. I'm pretty stoked

Thanks Greg I'll take a look at your program. If I have any issues I send you a PM

 

[sled_dog]

Panhard, Trac Bar, Lateral Locating link, all the same part just different names for it.

 

[Hossbaby50]

I can't really contribute alot to this subject but I can contribute a little info I learned about Juan's K5

Like Marv mentioned Juan's upper links in the rear were alot shorter then his lower links. From talking with Juan and Matt (az-k5) I learned that it was built this way for stability and not so much for flex. The upper links limited there rears ability to flex but it made it very stable at high speed and doing other forms of offroad. Juan told me he had it built this way because he wanted his suspension to perform well all around not just rockcrawling. I know that Randy Ellis built Juan's stuff and he did a damn good job at making it work pretty well all around. It is not great at any one thing but it did do very well all around.

Juan could fireroad at 60mph+, rockcrawl, DD, etc. It was amazing to watch this truck on waterfalls and uphill stuff.

Harley

 

[Paxx]

Awesome that is exactly the type of info I need. Those are the same goals that I have for my k5. I'm assuming that we are talking a 4 link as well in the rear of Juan's? Does anyone have any close up pics of his set-up I could take a look at?

 

[Paxx]

One more thing too, I was reading all the posts again and I don't know what IC or AS stand for. I am going to assume that AS is anti-squat but I don't have a clue what IC would be.

 

[k5 krawler 50]

ic i believe stands for instant center.. i have a hole bunch of info on link suspensions that i got from pirate and other sources on my comp at home. When i go home this weekend i'll post it all up

 

[Greg72]

One more thing too, I was reading all the posts again and I don't know what IC or AS stand for. I am going to assume that AS is anti-squat but I don't have a clue what IC would be.

IC = Instant Center
AS = Anti Squat
RC = Roll Center
CG = Center of Gravity


Keep the questions coming, this is pretty fun stuff once you really start to understand it.... :geek:

 

[yeild2me]

I love imaginary lines!!!!


Rob