Locker questions (and preference poll)

[campfire]

I'm getting ready to pick a rear locker for my CUCV build. This truck's intended terrain includes snow, ice, and muddy forest trails. Not planning on seeing rocks or bogs. Getting around the area to and from the forest trails will require plenty of road miles (so street manners are still a medium priority). I've heard a number of complaints about Detroit lockers on snow, ice, and just street driving in general. This truck will be a stick shift, so the driveshaft torque will be interrupted every time the clutch is pressed.

Keeping those things in mind, I searched through Summit's list of 10.5" GM locker options. Expensive options like the ARB aren't in the cards (though I do think selectables are cool).

It looks like my (available) options are:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...ch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=GM 10.5 locker

Detroit Locker 225S10 - Eaton Detroit Lockers $424

Yukon Gear & Axle YGLGM14T-30 - Yukon Gear & Axle Grizzly Lockers $492

Powertrax 1955-LR - Powertrax Lock-Right Lockers $363

Detroit Locker 915A545 - Eaton Detroit Truetrac Differentials $650

Powertrax 92-0705-3000 - Powertrax No-Slip Traction Systems $530

Eaton Posi Performance Differentials 19689-010 $730

(Please lemme know if I missed any).

Looking through this list, the Grizzly and the Lock-right seem to be pretty similar to the Detroit. The Eaton Posi slowly burns clutches. I like what I read about the Truetrac and the Powertrax (No-Slip). It sounds like both of them engage smoothly and provide a full lock without requiring clutches. Me likey.

If I were to buy a locker today, I'd probably go with the Powertrax. But I don't have significant experience with any of them, so I'm looking for input. What do you drive, and how well does it work? What are the pros and cons of each option? What would you recommend for a moderate trail rig in the snow belt?

Also, how well do Eaton Posi units hold out? Do clutches wear out quickly or last for long periods of time? Are they easily rebuildable? I'm currently in the process of purchasing a front axle from Big Dan, and it is coming with an Eaton Posi unit. He has a matching rear axle that also comes with an Eaton Posi. I have considered buying it, and it would be cheaper than buying a new locker. But I'm not yet convinced that 30+ year old clutch packs are worth much (nor did I find replacement clutch kits in my brief searching).

 

[Deuling]

Detroit. All the days of the week for me.

If I had the coin I would do arb or E locker.


My Powertrax no slip in the front end is pretty smooth, ive only heard it pop or do any ratcheting a handful of times.

 

[dyeager535]

I've been through this as well.

The truetrac is "worthless" with one wheel in the air. It runs into the same problem as an open diff. You can mitigate with the brake, but not desirable with a manual IMO. It is one I've thought about though.

You left out the gov-lock. People seem to love or hate them, but the 10.5 versions are pretty stout, and they work. I can't find anything out there that did what the gov-lock can do in terms of on- and off-road performance.

The gov-lock is not the best thing out there. But for road use with mild off-road, I can't think of anything that works as invisibly, requires no driver input, yet provides traction when you need it. Since you aren't doing mud, where wheel speed renders the gov-lock useless, it may be a good option to consider.

I like the idea of the Eaton E-locker (ARB to a lesser extent) but the e-locker is pricey, you can't engage it while moving, you have to anticipate conditions, and you still have to turn it on and off.

 

[nvrenuf]

I voted Detroit. I had 2 daily drivers with a Detroit and could hardly tell it was there. With a manual transmission I noticed it at times but it never made me wish I had something else.

Note, no snow or ice down here so all of my experience is with dry, rainy or muddy conditions.

 

[campfire]

Detroit. All the days of the week for me.

...

My Powertrax no slip in the front end is pretty smooth, ive only heard it pop or do any ratcheting a handful of times.

So...what makes the Detroit nicer than the Powertrax? Sounds like they both work well, one is just quieter than the other. Right?

 

[skunked]

I didn't like the detroit in the snow.

You left out the gov-lock. People seem to love or hate them, but the 10.5 versions are pretty stout, and they work. I can't find anything out there that did what the gov-lock can do in terms of on- and off-road performance.
The gov-lock is not the best thing out there. But for road use with mild off-road, I can't think of anything that works as invisibly, requires no driver input, yet provides traction when you need it. Since you aren't doing mud, where wheel speed renders the gov-lock useless, it may be a good option to consider.

I would agree with this as well, especially if you're looking to go with the 10.5" version.

 

[campfire]

I've been through this as well.

The truetrac is "worthless" with one wheel in the air. It runs into the same problem as an open diff. You can mitigate with the brake, but not desirable with a manual IMO. It is one I've thought about though.

You left out the gov-lock. People seem to love or hate them, but the 10.5 versions are pretty stout, and they work. I can't find anything out there that did what the gov-lock can do in terms of on- and off-road performance.

The gov-lock is not the best thing out there. But for road use with mild off-road, I can't think of anything that works as invisibly, requires no driver input, yet provides traction when you need it. Since you aren't doing mud, where wheel speed renders the gov-lock useless, it may be a good option to consider.

I like the idea of the Eaton E-locker (ARB to a lesser extent) but the e-locker is pricey, you can't engage it while moving, you have to anticipate conditions, and you still have to turn it on and off.

Alright. I had thought that the Truetrac locked up when spinning. Eaton advertises it as such. But if doesn't, it's not worth much to me.

I did include Gov-lock in the poll. I didn't put it in the list because I'm not sure where to buy one. If I had one I would be happy to run it. In fact, I bought an axle from a G80 truck for that reason. But when I opened it up I found no Gov-lock. So I don't have one.

Is it much different than the Eaton Posi that Big Dan is selling? I thought they were fairly similar units.

 

[campfire]

I didn't like the detroit in the snow.

I would agree with this as well, especially if you're looking to go with the 10.5" version.

Did you find that it tended to kick the rear end around as it locked and unlocked? Making it easier to lose traction in the snow? That's the complaint that I have heard several times.

And, yes, anything I ran would have a 10.5" carrier.

 

[campfire]

I like the idea of the Eaton E-locker (ARB to a lesser extent) but the e-locker is pricey, you can't engage it while moving, you have to anticipate conditions, and you still have to turn it on and off.

I don't think anyone makes an e-locker for the 14bff. You can't get an OX-locker, either.

 

[dyeager535]

E-locker seems to be slow coming to other axles. It was one they made for the 14SF so that's why I knew of it.

Gov-lock is completely different than anything else out there. I HAVE had mine start the rear end sliding on snow, but that is no different than any other traction device that keeps both axles tied together.The gov-lock requires a ~100RPM differential from left/right tire RPM to engage, and disengages over ~25MPH, so in a straight line with no or very light throttle, should never engage.

Posi/limited slip uses spring pressure to keep the axles locked together. It would be fun to try in a mild off-road truck, but for the hassle of setting one up, and the cost, it's not a risk I'm willing to take to hope it works. On flat ground they'd probably work well, but once you get a tire in the air, or even some weight off one tire, in a heavy truck I can't imagine the clutches will have anywhere near enough holding power to keep both wheels turning.

 

[skunked]

Did you find that it tended to kick the rear end around as it locked and unlocked? Making it easier to lose traction in the snow? That's the complaint that I have heard several times.

yep all it takes is a little spin on snow or ice going up a hill and then you'll be steering with your right foot. Pretty scary when you're in a turn or going at a decent rate of speed. My other trucks have all been equipped with a gov-lock (14bolt & 10bolt) and they've been fine in the snow.

 

[Deuling]

So...what makes the Detroit nicer than the Powertrax? Sounds like they both work well, one is just quieter than the other. Right?

Imo it just appeared to be a more quality piece when I installed. And they have been around forever. IMO that makes them kinda a proven thing.

Although you being stick and driving in snow, you way want something with a little more "slop", not really sure what im trying to say.

 

[campfire]

yep all it takes is a little spin on snow or ice going up a hill and then you'll be steering with your right foot. Pretty scary when you're in a turn or going at a decent rate of speed. My other trucks have all been equipped with a gov-lock (14bolt & 10bolt) and they've been fine in the snow.

Steering with my right foot is *exactly* the condition I'm trying to get away from. Why bother having a locker if it's going to increase your odds of spinning out?

 

[campfire]

Gov-lock is completely different than anything else out there. I HAVE had mine start the rear end sliding on snow, but that is no different than any other traction device that keeps both axles tied together.The gov-lock requires a ~100RPM differential from left/right tire RPM to engage, and disengages over ~25MPH, so in a straight line with no or very light throttle, should never engage.

Posi/limited slip uses spring pressure to keep the axles locked together. It would be fun to try in a mild off-road truck, but for the hassle of setting one up, and the cost, it's not a risk I'm willing to take to hope it works. On flat ground they'd probably work well, but once you get a tire in the air, or even some weight off one tire, in a heavy truck I can't imagine the clutches will have anywhere near enough holding power to keep both wheels turning.

I thought the gov-lock was a clutch-based unit as well. If not, what form of engagement does it use?

I have a 10-bolt gov-lock in Big Blue, but the truck has hardly ever been in a situation where it would have engaged. Enough bad things are said about them that I've never felt like taking it out for a deliberate stress test, either. So I don't actually know very much about it.

 

[campfire]

Imo it just appeared to be a more quality piece when I installed. And they have been around forever. IMO that makes them kinda a proven thing.

Although you being stick and driving in snow, you way want something with a little more "slop", not really sure what im trying to say.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, either.

I do agree that I want something that will be softer engaging & disengaging. The last thing I need is an abrupt jerk on my wheels. That sounds like a skid inducement to me (for ice driving, anyway).

 

[mrk5]

Stock Gov-Loc and save money for an ARB. Although I've done a lot of snow runs and I can only think of 1 or 2 times the Detroit made things really bad. I've never noticed the Detroit being a problem on the road in all seasons.

 

[Deuling]

I do agree that I want something that will be softer engaging & disengaging. The last thing I need is an abrupt jerk on my wheels. That sounds like a skid inducement to me (for ice driving, anyway).

That's what I was going for.

 

[6872xtc]

I agree with skunked. I have driven a Detroit in snow with a manual transmission and what a pain! I have a truetrac in my shortbed and have had it work very well in snow, even though it has the weight of a big block up front. So I voted for it, considering what you posted for the truck's intended use. I have also had good luck with the gov-loc when my '90 had one.

 

[campfire]

I agree with skunked. I have driven a Detroit in snow with a manual transmission and what a pain! I have a truetrac in my shortbed and have had it work very well in snow, even though it has the weight of a big block up front. So I voted for it, considering what you posted for the truck's intended use. I have also had good luck with the gov-loc when my '90 had one.

Ok, what happens when you have one wheel on ice? Dyeager said that the one wheel will spin like an open diff. That the truetrac & posi units cannot transfer enough torque to keep both wheels turning in such a situation. Is that what you see? Have you ever jacked up one wheel and tried to drive away? I would think that would be a good test of how well the locker works.

 

[Deuling]

That sounds fishy to me.... Whats the purpose of them even selling them if they act like an open diff......?