my "saved" rant... ;)

[ryoken]

this is gonna be my "reply" to all the "Por15 is God's jizz" posts on FB... I grow tired of the ignorance being perpetuated..... I actually named, and saved it to my desktop.. don't be surprised to see it pop up occasionally...


lock/stock and quotes... I actually feel like this is quite "non-confrontational and diplomatic" to the masses of sheep... trust me, I can go off..



"ok, here's the diatribe.. fight me.... POR15 is an encapsulator.. it has it's purpose... about 5th on the list of "best ways to deal with rust"....

on a properly prepared, and topcoated, rusty surface, it can stave off rust failure for quite some time... This can be advantageous in situations where the frame will be left mounted to the body, etc...

easy to brush/slather some stuff on and hit it wth a rattle can maybe...

but if you think this is comparable in any way to a proper catalyzed coating system over raw steel, you are sadly mistaken.. an air-dried resin, even moisture-aided like encapsilators, (btw Rust Bullet is the EXACT same product) resin will NEVER cure as hard as a catalyzed resin... it's in the base resin... Rustoleum will ALWAYS be vastly softer than freakin Glasurit..... chemistry folks, not rocket science...

in prior decades, a 2 part zinc wash, urethane prime, poly topcoat was THE system to run.. in the last 15, 20 tho that has shifted to an epoxy based approach, cuz zinc is eVil... all good, righteous product, and approach.. "

 

[centexk5]

So where does Sherwin Williams dtm rank?

 

[ryoken]

dtm's are generally preferred for spot priming raw stuff these days, not covered in initial epoxy, or factory finish....... not recommended for an overall base, like an old zinc wash was..

SW is ok, most of the time.. middle class line for the most part.. sometimes lower, or upper, depending on their current formulas, etc... many mannys fall into that category.. a Glasurit is "upper class" material..

 

[cheavyk10]

I agree. POR 15 didn't work as good as I hoped.
I did the floor of my cab with their kit, that included all the prep materials as well as the top coat.
Well guess what...fast forward 7 years and there are rust bubbles forming under the POR 15.
Now I need to redo it all, and I am not looking forward to it.

 

[ryoken]

yup.. I've seen properly prepped and coated stuff fail in large sheets.. we where using that stuff in the early 90's in the marine biz on V-drives, etc...... LONG before it became intraweb famous.. salt environments will test your snot...

as I said, it has it's place.. but IMO, the vast majority of the time, it's the choice of someone being lazy.

I'm a body guy.. clean, raw steel is life... most in here know that about me... rust is the deBil.. #blast&epoxyFTW #blastcabFTW

 

[Big Ray]

Dtm...?

 

[ryoken]

Dtm...?

direct to metal.. kind of the modern day zinc chromate without the zinc...

 

[76zimmer]

In addition to the advertising, especially on how to auto shows, I think its popularity also lives on the ease of application. wirebrush the rust and brush on the encapsulator. This is light duty stuff. Knick it just alittle and you’ve broke open the seal to allow the oxidation process to begin. Then it remains hidden under the surface until major damage has occurred.

 

[Wiregeek]

So what's the answer? Wire wheel, blast, zinc chromate, poly, epoxy in that order?

 

[ryoken]

So what's the answer? Wire wheel, blast, zinc chromate, poly, epoxy in that order?

to what? proper coating system for raw steel? treating rust? alternatives to slathering snake oil on?

wire wheeling and blasting are surface prep processes.. zinc chromate is a dodo bird these days.. yes, you can still get a killa 2-part zinc wash, IMO, the best etch prime you'll get... but zinc chromate in general is no longer available.. thus the DTM's, and various "self etching" offerings...

you CANNOT combine zinc chromate and epoxy in any way... bad juju......

the easy route these days over clean raw steel, is epoxy, followed by a urethane primer... epoxy sticks pretty good to raw steel...

polys can be put in the mix after, if you are looking for a sprayable fairing compound type situation. but i generally just go to a 2k, sand, paint.. you could seal inbetween to be anal tho...

as for rusty areas, well.. that'd be another post...

zinc

urethane 2k

satin Imron...

 

[Wiregeek]

Yeah I should have been more clear. Though, your post did clarify a lot for me. I'm thinking I'm gonna run into three main metal 'states' to deal with on the Jimmy, EPDM primered, wire-wheeled original rusty, and blasted clean. Your above post pretty much covers the clean steel, I imagine the EPDM (EDM? EMDP? The black primered replacement panels and patch panels) would get the same treatment as the nearby original steel, just wire wheel the piss out of them, then what to neutralize surface or flash or leftover rust? Ospho?

Learning curve's not a cliff, but it feels pretty steep!

 

[ryoken]

EDP primer is fine, as long as it doesn't come off with lacquer thinner/rag... if it does, strip it.. if not, you can scuff thoroughly and overcoat right with 2k... we did it all the time at the body shop... quality EDP is a good etch...

you are making me nervous with numerous "wire wheel" mentions tho.. be aware wire wheeling does not really leave a proper surface for priming.. you are burnishing the surface.. while it can be helpful on scaly or pitted stuff, you need to be sanding areas for the most part, even after wire wheeling when possible.....

if you are referring to a semi rusty framerail scenario, yeah, wire wheel, acid/sand/grind/blast as best you can.. cleaner the better.. and sure if you have some areas you can't get 100%, ospho or others converters are good for rusty spots.... follow with standard priming products..

 

[Blue85]

You should change the title of this thread to something like "the secret to rust repair with POR-15 or Rust Bullet". (The first sentence could be "skip it"). Then we have it stickied and create a bot that links to it whenever someone mentions POR-15.

 

[kennyw]

My favorite for the Florida coast is inorganic zinc (ioz) primer with no top coat for clean steel. NASA testing shows it will outlast every other paint system they have tested on the beach. But when you want something to look pretty, it is hard to convince management that green zinc primer is good enough.

 

[Wiregeek]

I spent too long in Bent77's build thread, I think Ryoken Green is the correct color now!

Again, thank you for your responses and this thread, Ryoken - I've learned a whole lot and had to stop and think.

I'm just glad I did it before I got POR-15 on my everything!

 

[ryoken]

I spent too long in Bent77's build thread, I think Ryoken Green is the correct color now!

Again, thank you for your responses and this thread, Ryoken - I've learned a whole lot and had to stop and think.

I'm just glad I did it before I got POR-15 on my everything!

yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place.. at about #5 when dealing with rust IMO... but used in the right situations it does ok..

just be aware, for as much as I dig Dave's Iron Maiden running around Moab in Ryoken green , I've tended to shift my advice away from zinc anymore... it's just become too difficult to verify quality in the "self-etch" market.... so, epoxy is generally what i recommend these days for raw steel when you can.. DTM is great for spotting raw stuff, on say bodywork panels, but for all-over etch prime, epoxy is my choice these days...

it was more just a rant to the blind oblivious lazy people of social media that slather it on like God's snake oil..

feel free to message me if I can help... it's an unfortunate thing i picked up as a tech body student, an obsession for proper coating.. from proper mechanical grit selection, to chemical apps, etc.....

my builds tend to verify that insanity unfortunately......

 

[Big Ray]

our gunners mate and I painted the ships gun mount with Imron...
When the C.O. found out he was pissed! Still worth it..lol

 

[ryoken]

our gunners mate and I painted the ships gun mount with Imron...
When the C.O. found out he was pissed! Still worth it..lol

Imron is an interesting subject... urethane vs polyurethanes.. I shot dozens of mixers, D9's, tri-axles in that chit working at Hunterdon Concrete..... 100 's of gals thru my Binks 3 gal pressure pot.. still have it... they did change the formula tho in the late 90's...

the K5 is chromabase with Imron clear....