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Need Diesel Engine Help

Fordum

Fordum

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Folks, I'm over my head here.
Friend of mine has a repair shop. He started it about 3 months before the hurricane hit and flattened it. He has gotten it up and running again at a new, inferior, location.
He does the maintenance on the local ambulance service. When he started that, I informed him, that given my advanced age, there was a better than even chance I might need the services of an ambulance one of these days, and it had darn well not break down due to a maintenance issue.
Not sure who was keeping them up before, but I am glad he is doing it now. They were not in good shape when they started rolling in. He is really stepping up.
The other day, one came in with a really bad knock. Either a rod or a main bearing. Mileage on the engine is too high for any chance of a simple repair. I suppose its possible to pull it and send it to a rebuilder, but that incurres labor costs for the extraction without a guarantee of a rebuildable engine.
Here is where the problem comes in:

Its a 2007 GM product with the ambulance setup. According to my friend, 2007 is a split year. It could have either of two engines.
Unfortunately it has a LMN Duramax.
I suggested a GM crate engine, none available, no time frame when one might be.
No one has a used engine.
We found a long block, but then you are looking at a new turbo, injectors, plus labor to finish building it.
Found a rebuilt one with everything on the block, but would still need a turbo unless they want to risk using the old one. If it were to fail, they would not warrant the rebuild.
Plus its very high priced.

I suggested installing a different model, since GM is known for standardization of parts.
He did not think that it was feasible due to the Allison transmission and the computer interface system.
Remember, this is an ambulance, so it has to be solid and reliable.
Plus, since this is a shop, and he is not doing it on his own dime, he wants to keep costs as low as possible for his customer.
I suggested that since that model vehicle used two different engines, there should be a simple setup to use the other, more common, engine.
He said he did not know of any, so I suggested I post here.
If the brotherhood doesn't know of a way, it must not exist.

Any Ideas?
 
@Russell

Hopefully this drags Russell into the conversation. He is pretty well versed in Dirtymax stuff
 
You mean LMM? 07 was split year between LBZ and LMM. As far as compatability, I can’t say for sure.
 
Dont put his name on a swap. Original equipment or none. Used engine is gamble with no warranty ever. Cab and chassis dont use the same as pickup in alot of ways. Be sure a replacement is a dealer sold vin matched item.
 
The phone was ringing, there was an engine being revved in the shop, and traffic was going by. I thought I heard LMN, had to be LMM.
Certainly wasn't LBZ, wasn't off that much.
Thanks.
 
Although the Allison trans will physically bolt up to any of the engines offered at the time (gas or diesel) the computers are different and the transmission computer would need to be reprogrammed.

Best option is to stay with the factory engine model that came in it.
 
Also make sure it's not an injector that's failed causing the "knock" noise. Simple to check their flow rates with the computer
 
The LMM I did in my 4500 cost a f-ing fortune. These projects tend to snowball once the parts start coming out. Expensive motor, expensive turbo, expensive injectors. If it wasn't a crew 4x4 it wouldn't have even been worth it. Pulls great now, great setup for me in the mountains. Unless the ambulance is in great shape otherwise it might not be worth it. Evaluate the rest of the vehicle and what the whole job is really going to need. An ambulance can't have any shortcuts, OEM parts with an OEM price.
 
I used blackwaterengines.com for a powerstroke, I was very impressed as they didn’t charge for shipping and if I recall correctly they didn’t charge for the core unless the core didn’t show up within 30days, if I ever have to do another diesel long block I’ll be using them again. I checked their website and for all of the long blocks they say to ‘call for price’ however if you move it to the cart it showed $4,900 for the LMM long block without any extras.

I agree with the above comments, I would be very surprised if it were worth the cost of labor/long block on an ambulance that’s already high mileage. I could be wrong though!
 
Is this a van body chassis or a truck cab and chassis? Big difference.

If it is a truck cab and chassis in the classic body style, it will have an LBZ. If it is a truck cab and chassis in the new body style it will have an LMM. The two engines are more or less identical as far as the short block and rotating assembly are concerned. The heads are different to accommodate the changes in fuel injection components (different injectors etc). The two engine controls systems are not compatible with each other. The 07 classic runs both a low speed and high speed data bus, while the 07 new body style runs a newer high speed only data bus with a whole different communication protocol (CAN-BUS vs GMLAN). You can bolt LBZ heads and accessories onto an LMM and run it with the older LBZ control system, and vice versa. The transmissions are mechanically identical and will run fine off either of the two transmission control modules.

If it is a van body, then things are very different. The vans are an odd creature and the interchangeability is totally different. I would need to do some research to determine what (if anything) would interchange with the van. I do know that the van body runs a totally different accessory drive, oil pan, turbocharger exhaust and control system than the truck does. The vans tended to stick to the older low speed serial data systems and typically had a 4L85E 4 speed automatic instead of the Allison that was used in the truck bodies. They do not run a separate transmission control module and the PCM handles the transmission like the older gen III LS engines.
 
Not sure which chassis it is. I should be able to find out tomorrow.
The whole problem with what they have is the price and availability of a replacement LMM engine. Which is why I was hoping to convert it to a more reasonable power plant.
Just out of curiosity, if we pulled the LMM heads off, dropped in a LBZ short block, and put on the old heads and used the original control system would that work? Of course, I am assuming that LBZ parts are cheaper and more plentiful than LMM parts.

Basically as it stands, the ambulance is probably repairable, but they are looking at about 17K for a rebuilt engine installed. I haven't climbed around in it to see what kind of shape its in, but it looks pretty good from the outside and from looking in the door.
I know the running stuff is in better shape than it used to be since my buddy started doing the upkeep.
For instance, all the ambulances have a onboard genset mounted in a compartment in the back. When the units first came in, most of the gensets had oil that looked like black salad dressing. Now the units get serviced along with the rest of the system. Regular oil changes, along with air and oil filters.

Again, I'm doing this partially in a spirit of self interest. Every so often, the county runs out of ambulances. So sick people have to wait. I may be one of those one day, and the more units in service, the better my chances.
Since the hurricane, its gotten a lot worse. The local hospital was damaged. They can see patients, but not admit them. No rooms. So, now really sick folk have to be taken to another city. Most of the time that means a two hour round trip. Which means two hours per patient that the unit is out of service.

I'll check in with the shop tomorrow, if anyone thinks of any questions, post them up, and I will try to get answers.
 
Around here LBZ engines are like gold. They sell for an enormous premium over LMM engines (which are far more commonly available). Yes, if you can get your hands on an LBZ short block, you can definitely bolt all the LMM stuff onto it and run it as an LMM.
 
That is interesting. I don't know about LBZ around here, but so far we have only found one long block and one short block LMM in the entire area. Which makes me wonder why the short block is designated an LMM.
I'll pass this info along to my friend and we will do more research.
I wonder what the shipping cost would be from Alberta to Florida..............
 
Fordum said:
That is interesting. I don't know about LBZ around here, but so far we have only found one long block and one short block LMM in the entire area. Which makes me wonder why the short block is designated an LMM.
I'll pass this info along to my friend and we will do more research.
I wonder what the shipping cost would be from Alberta to Florida..............
Click to expand...
A lot
 
Several years ago I had in injector issue in my 05' D-Max. You would have sworn that it had a bad bearing or something had let loose in the bottom end. I got really lucky that after I had it towed home it "fixed" itself and wasn't making any noise when I unloaded it off the trailer. I spent a few weeks looking at injector balance rates, doing some EFI live testing and snooping and finally decided that the #7 injector was the bad one. I replaced just that injector and never looked back.

Point is unless you know it's for sure a bottom end issue I would look at injectors, injection pump, etc.
 
Easy way to check for a bottom end issue is the good old tried and true drain the oil and cut open the filter method.

If the filter element isn't full of debris look elsewhere.

If it looks like this on the otherhand.......(and no that's not a large flake, thats the top off the oil jug I used as a pan)
20190123_131844.jpg
 
The ambulance company has decided to replace the engine. The trick now, is finding one. So far, the only complete engine we have found was from O'Reilly's of all places. LKQ, which has a fairly good rep in this area doesn't have one, GM does not have one and does not have a time frame when one might be available.
We did find a long block, but my friend does not want to replace the engine without new injectors and turbo.
He has another business that runs several big diesel trucks, and has dealt with engine rebuilding and replacing before. His thinking is that if the old turbo lets go, or an injector fails, the engine rebuilder is going to deny any warranty claim if it damages the new block.
We have not checked with Jasper, but we both have heard bad things about them. My friend is something of an oddity in the repair business. His other business has made him something of a rep in the area for fairness and honesty, and he is trying to maintain that in his shop dealings.
He is in the business to make money, of course, so he charges what is fair, but I have seen him not charge many times for hours spent trying to run down a problem.
He tries to keep his customers in the loop as much as they can stand.
Some 80 year old lady comes in asking about a noise, he is not going to take her out in the shop and show her the damaged rotors and pads and probably scare her. But if its a guy who knows stuff about vehicles, he has no problem showing him what is wrong and discussing options.

So, he has been working with the ambulance company about options, and trying to find a better price for a complete engine. So far, 14K just for the engine is the best and only price he has come up with.
If anyone here has an idea or a source for reliable engines, chime in.

I did discuss with him and one of his mechanics about the noise being caused by an injector. He agreed that all kinds of knocks and bearing sounds could be caused by one, but apparently this noise is very impressive. They say it sounds like metal on metal banging around in the engine.
I made the comment that if it were my truck, and the pan could be dropped without pulling the engine, I would pay them to drop the pan and see what is going on before ordering the new engine.
The ambulance actually only has about 230K on it, but there are tons of idling hours on the engine.
And the actual miles are mostly at WOT. In fact, according to the computer, the other day it was running at 100.06% throttle. Just how it can run more than 100% throttle, I am not sure, but there you are.

I mentioned his rep. Mon, a guy who knows him, brought in his pickup with a loud scraping noise from the front end. A quick check reveled badly worn brake pads, but not to the point of damage. The noise was a bent dust shield that was touching the rotor.
Even now, 3 months after the hurricane, there are still tons of debris around the roads, and he probably had something hit the shield and bend it.
Quick brake job, and time for a test drive. ALL vehicles get a test drive after any repairs.
The mechanic heard a noise in the rear end. Back on the rack, and sure enough some kind of grinding. Pulling the cover, revealed some bad bearings and metal shavings. But no sign of damage to the main parts. A bearing and seal job should put it back on the road.
He worked up what it would cost to rebuild it, and called the customer. Explained that the original noise was the dust shield and he had fixed that and done the brake work that the customer had originally figured it would need.
Then he broke the news about the rear end. Said that they had caught it in time, and should not need a complete new rear end.
Customer never hesitated, said that if he said it needed it then it did, go ahead and fix it.
Truck rolled out yesterday afternoon, no noises and a happy driver.
This is why I like to hang around with this guy. He is good people. Plus, every so often, something in my field pops up. I got to fix his top of the line Hunter tire balancer the other day.
 
For a complete rebuilt long block with a new turbo and new injectors, 14k is about the best price you'll find. A short block is around $6500. Most rebuilders will require you to replace anything that comes in contact with the coolant or oil for warranty purposes. That means a new EGR and new oil cooler, new radiator, rad hoses, heater cores and hoses, new turbo oil supply and return tubing etc. Make sure you factor that into your costs.

A used engine would be a far more cost effective option if the customer is willing to take the risk on it. Finding a used engine which hasn't been abused with aftermarket tuning is not easy.
 
$14k doesn't surprise me at all. This is a business looking to keep a truck going, not just a personal truck. You are talking about medical billing here and they are going to write it off. Don't worry about it, just do a good job with the right stuff. Price out a new ambulance, it will shock you.
 
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