New mini PM starter and Ford starter Solenoid not getting along...

[Shawn]

Got my new PM starter installed. Only problem is now it has a 2 second delay before the starter disengages. Tried to shim some more but no luck. Did some research and found these newer permanent magnet starters do no like having a jumper between the terminals. Looks like I may need to remove the remote (Ford) solenoid and run the small starter wire back to the new starter. I've always ran these since I would get GM starters that would suffer from heat soak especially on my Typhoon.

Has anyone else ran into this with the newer PM starters and if so what did you do? I assume everyone is running the small starter wire directly to the PM starter like original factory. I suppose I could re-wire the Ford so it's only driving the smaller wire and connect the starter directly to the battery.

Why does my starter seem to “run on” after the switch is released?

This is a common complaint on permanent magnet starters, although it can occur on any permanent magnet starter in the right conditions. This situation develops when the ignition terminal on the starter is “jumpered” to the battery terminal on the starter and a remote solenoid is used. Permanent magnet starters can actually produce power if they are driven from an outside source (i.e. the starter will act like an alternator once the engine fires and starts spinning). The current produced in the starter for this second or so will flow from the starter’s battery terminal to the starter’s ignition terminal and hold the solenoid in. This will cause the one to two second delay in the solenoid release and an irritating noise. The solution is to wire the starter per the instruction sheet, which will ensure that the ignition switch terminal goes dead the instance the key is released.

If you try to power your GM PM starter with a single cable (like a Ford) you'll experience delayed drive disengagement. The problem stems from a PM starter momentarily acting like a generator after battery power is removed, keeping the solenoid energized through the "jumper wire" for 1 - 2 seconds, after the engine starts. The consequences are really annoying!

The only way to avoid the problem is to wire it like a Chevy!

Here's why:
Ford energizes their solenoid and starter motor at the same time through a shared battery cable that is switched by a remote relay. The Ford solenoid serves the single purpose of engaging the starter drive with the ring gear. Ford uses a single-step process. The magnetic field that moves the solenoid is the same magnetic field that turns the motor. A PM motor cannot generate enough power to run itself.

GM energizes their solenoid through a dedicated circuit that is electrically isolated from the starter motor. On GM, the solenoid doubles as the starter relay. So, the solenoid engages the drive with the ring gear, then closes a high-current switch to energize the starter motor. GM uses a dual-step process. The magnetic field that moves the solenoid is independent from the magnetic field that turns the motor. A PM motor can generate enough power to keep the GM solenoid energized if jumpered directly to the power lead of the solenoid. Confused?

Bottom line, use Powermaster's philosophy: Wire a Ford like a Ford, and a GM like a GM.

The remote solenoid kit:


Jumper:


Wiring diagram of my old starter:

 

[ryoken]

i often run slave solenoids, been doing it for decades.... never seen that..

we have that with certain merc packages in the boats.. but it's due to the ECM telling the starter to spin, not the key... it is annoying....

 

[Blue85]

I never got into the jumper wire idea. The goal is to have the least resistance possible, but then you're putting the current through 2 sets of contacts instead of 1. I prefer a heavy cable from the battery to the big solenoid terminal (like stock, buy you might want to use better cable). Using the Ford solenoid to power the small terminal as you've already suggested is actually better overall. The big problem with the GM setup is crappy wiring to the S terminal, which you fix with the remote solenoid and decent gauge wire. Then all timing is still controlled by the main solenoid/bendix just like stock.

 

[mrk5]

I have a remote solenoid on my PM mini starter and it works fine. I don't have the jumper wire. Maybe I did my setup weird. I have the little wire going to the remote solenoid and then a wire from there going down to the starter solenoid. Plus the big battery cable coming from the remote solenoid down to the battery lug on the stater.

 

[Shawn]

i often run slave solenoids, been doing it for decades.... never seen that..

we have that with certain merc packages in the boats.. but it's due to the ECM telling the starter to spin, not the key... it is annoying....

If you read up on these PM starters they say the jumper will damage the starter. You can still do the remote solenoid but only from the trigger wire.

I never got into the jumper wire idea. The goal is to have the least resistance possible, but then you're putting the current through 2 sets of contacts instead of 1. I prefer a heavy cable from the battery to the big solenoid terminal (like stock, buy you might want to use better cable). Using the Ford solenoid to power the small terminal as you've already suggested is actually better overall. The big problem with the GM setup is crappy wiring to the S terminal, which you fix with the remote solenoid and decent gauge wire. Then all timing is still controlled by the main solenoid/bendix just like stock.

Heat soak is a common issue on GM cars. The increased heat adds more resistance in the small starter wire and the starter won't even click. I never had the issue with this K5 but other GM cars I did so I usually add this as a preventive cure to a common issue. Older cars have it worse especially with headers. My Typhoon with the turbo exhaust heat suffered too.

I have a remote solenoid on my PM mini starter and it works fine. I don't have the jumper wire. Maybe I did my setup weird. I have the little wire going to the remote solenoid and then a wire from there going down to the starter solenoid. Plus the big battery cable coming from the remote solenoid down to the battery lug on the stater.

I think if you did it like this you are fine. Do not do it like the diagram above or you will kill the starter.

 

[Wes Harden]

please define your PM (permanent Magnet?) starter. I have plans to replace my old gen 1 starter with a smaller later model gm stater, is this the same type starter you are having an Issue with. Current wiring is slave solenoid with jumper at starter. Works great no wish to change.
I have this in my parts pile. https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oem-parts/gm-starter-motor-19180528

 

[mrk5]

I think if you did it like this you are fine. Do not do it like the diagram above or you will kill the starter.
View attachment 349456

Yeah that's mine. I just couldn't remember why I did it that way.

please define your PM (permanent Magnet?) starter. I have plans to replace my old gen 1 starter with a smaller later model gm stater, is this the same type starter you are having an Issue with. Current wiring is slave solenoid with jumper at starter. Works great no wish to change.
I have this in my parts pile. https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oem-parts/gm-starter-motor-19180528

I took PM to mean PowerMaster

 

[Bent77]

Using a mini with the solenoid on the starter, 2 years and ok so far

 

[mrk5]

I put the remote solenoid in mine after watching @ktmoutfront melt down a battery on the trail due to the starter cable shorting on the frame.

 

[Shawn]

please define your PM (permanent Magnet?) starter. I have plans to replace my old gen 1 starter with a smaller later model gm stater, is this the same type starter you are having an Issue with. Current wiring is slave solenoid with jumper at starter. Works great no wish to change.
I have this in my parts pile. https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oem-parts/gm-starter-motor-19180528

I think its "most" of the smaller gear reduction starters. Power Master and Tilton advertises not to use the jumper. I have a factory starter thats spec'd for a 96 chevy truck. I think most the majority of the smaller starters have a permanent magnet inside which causes this issue. I'd check the directions to verify but I bet most don't want you to jumper those terminals since it kills the starter over time.

Yeah that's mine. I just couldn't remember why I did it that way.


I took PM to mean PowerMaster

I should have clarified that. Same thing thought since PowerMaster seems to use the permanent magnet style.

Using a mini with the solenoid on the starter, 2 years and ok so far

Do you have it hooked up like the last diagram with no jumper? Or do you use jumper? Using a jumper is what they say not to do.

I put the remote solenoid in mine after watching @ktmoutfront melt down a battery on the trail due to the starter cable shorting on the frame.

I agree. I loved having not disconnecting the battery when removing the starter or having to worry about touching the header. Plus it gives you the option to bump the engine with a screw driver or switch. There's no power from the solenoid until you turn the key. Unfortunately this new starter does not allow that method.

 

[Bent77]

Mines hooked up with factory wire, no external solenoid. No where close to the header

 

[ktmoutfront]

I put the remote solenoid in mine after watching @ktmoutfront melt down a battery on the trail due to the starter cable shorting on the frame.

A remote solenoid would not have helped mine. That cable would have still been hot. And mine was an adel clamp that broke and dropped the wire.

I have never ran a remote solenoid for a starter. Never had the heat soak issue on anything.

 

[mrk5]

Technically I have everything going thru a battery shutoff so I could save it, but it still made me think about trying to minimize the possibilities.

I had heat soak issues with the 71 cuda we had. In order to install the starter on the 383 it had to be installed with the header. So it was tight clearance.

 

[6872xtc]

I have one truck with a Nippendenso and one with the replacement for the GM starter. Both have remote solenoids. The GM style does the same thing that you are seeing. Done it for years with no problems. I will often let off of the key a little earlier because of this. I may rewire it someday, or install a diode. Not worried about it over other things.

 

[Shawn]

I just went and removed the Ford remote solenoid and wired it similar to factory. I did take some precautions and made sure to route the wires away from the header and used some DEI heat shield on the wires. I installed a 12v positive post where the solenoid was and run everything there that was on the solenoid.

If I ever experience any heat soak issues then I will just add a small 40 amp Bosch relay and do this with the stater switch (trigger) wire. Basically same thing what the larger solenoid would do but in a smaller foot print. Plus easy to keep a spare or two in the glove box.


No more starter run-on for 3-4 seconds. FIXED!

A remote solenoid would not have helped mine. That cable would have still been hot. And mine was an adel clamp that broke and dropped the wire.

I have never ran a remote solenoid for a starter. Never had the heat soak issue on anything.

If you never experience any issues then I wouldn't worry about it. I never had an issue with the K5 but liked doing for easy to bump the motor and liked not having power on that starter wire all the time.

A good precaution is to add some heat shield to the wires to prevent any wires to melt or touch the header.

Technically I have everything going thru a battery shutoff so I could save it, but it still made me think about trying to minimize the possibilities.

I had heat soak issues with the 71 cuda we had. In order to install the starter on the 383 it had to be installed with the header. So it was tight clearance.

Keep thinking about a battery shut off. I have so many damn wires going the battery, its stupid!

I have one truck with a Nippendenso and one with the replacement for the GM starter. Both have remote solenoids. The GM style does the same thing that you are seeing. Done it for years with no problems. I will often let off of the key a little earlier because of this. I may rewire it someday, or install a diode. Not worried about it over other things.

I keep reading the run-on of the starter will kill it but sounds like you've had good luck with yours. Diode would probably fix it too. Thats what took me awhile. I had to re-wire a few things and replace a few cables I didn't like. First wire to the starter was too short so had to do that twice. Then the starter had to be shimmed. Then the flex plate shield wouldn't go back on until I rotated the header collector flanges. One thing after another...

 

[ktmoutfront]

Keep thinking about a battery shut off. I have so many damn wires going the battery, its stupid!

I did the battery disconnect on the negative side.

 

[500$k5]

When using a ford solenoid, and a permanent magnet style starter with a solenoid jumper, run on, will occur, for a couple of seconds. This is caused by electricity created by the perm. magnets as the starter is slowing down. This will cause the overrunning clutch in the starter drive to prematurely wear out. Wire wound field coil type starters like N. Denso, or early Delcos don't do this.

 

[Shawn]

Thanks for the explanation.

So far, my new starter has been great even when hot and no remote solenoid. Fitment is great with the headers. I wouldn't mind finding a heat shield to install on the starter. I think the Avalanche and other GM trucks came with one.

 

[Bent77]

@wheels87k5