George_Pimpdaddy
1/2 ton status
quick question just how much fluid should i buy when i go to refill my nv4500?
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.
NV4500 lockup! Can Any gurus tell me what happened here?
- Thread starter 73k5blazer
- Start date
bp71k5
3/4 ton status
Mine took a solid gallon. If you want to overfill it like suggested, get 5 quarts. With oil prices the way they are I'd hate to see how much the stuff costs now. $$$
George_Pimpdaddy
1/2 ton status
lol no doubt looks like im gettin a bank loan lol
I got dinged for $28/litre from GM when I got it for my NV4500. 
Rene
Rene
+1 that has also experienced this exact failure. Run a bronze pilot bearing after you rebuild it rather than a roller unit. Overfill is also desirable. If you really would like to be wild, check the bell housing run out and correct if needed.
Yeah, I already have a new bronze pilot. Stupid $20 part causes $1000+ in damage.
I should check the runout on the bell, and I probably will. In this case though, I think it was most assurdly the pilot bearing. In thinking about it, I may have re-installed the transmission last time (about 50k ago) and the input shaft where it mates to the pilot, I think I remember it having some slight grooves. Nothing I didn't think out of the ordinary, nothing deep, but there were some you could feel with your fingers. I didn't think too much about re-installing it that way. Perhaps that was a mistake here, together with the roller pilot in the diesel too spelled disaster.
if I decide to scrap my high-milage K2500, this tranny will get rebuilt and put into my project k5. Giddy up....
I should check the runout on the bell, and I probably will. In this case though, I think it was most assurdly the pilot bearing. In thinking about it, I may have re-installed the transmission last time (about 50k ago) and the input shaft where it mates to the pilot, I think I remember it having some slight grooves. Nothing I didn't think out of the ordinary, nothing deep, but there were some you could feel with your fingers. I didn't think too much about re-installing it that way. Perhaps that was a mistake here, together with the roller pilot in the diesel too spelled disaster.
if I decide to scrap my high-milage K2500, this tranny will get rebuilt and put into my project k5. Giddy up....
Last edited:
Well, I finally found time to tear this thing down and see exactly what parts I need.
It went from "this doesn't look so bad" to "this is really bad"
Basically, the only parts that *are* good are:
The case,
2 of three shift forks
5th gear (counter and main),
Revese gear and hub & sleeve and idler
first gear and hub
Everything else is bad.
Just quickly adding up from some prices I can find
Countershaft - $289
Bearing & Seal kit - $254
Syncro kit - $389
small parts - $159
input shaft - $110
Main shaft - $120
3-4 Shift fork - $50
2nd gear - $90
3rd gear - $110
And a few other small parts probably:
THat's $1571. Now, can I find cheaper parts, probably. How much cheaper and how much quality will I sacrifice, that's another story. These prices I just got from various interweb sources. To make matters worse, it seems real New Venture parts are become more and more scarce. ANd there's not much places I found find that are even stocking all these parts. I have yet to find where I can get a countershaft or mainshaft, New Venture or China, 0 sources I can find thus far. The three places that did have them, say they no longer do. Several places have said they cannot rebuild the NV4500 anymore due to a shortage of parts. So, WTF is that. I havn't called around to local or other known real places yet that don't advertise on the interweb much, (it is sunday), but what I'm finding on the interweb is rather disturbing.
Am I just not looking in the right places or what? Even the General, who is supposed to stock parts for 10 years (last year for this trans was 2002 in P chassis I beilive, and 2000 on CK 1-tons), I have a direct number for and automated insider service parts line, it tells where available, and GM employee price, (thanks to my retired dad & active brother who work at the general), they are not in stock, anywhere, no GM parts countershafts or mainshafts, 2nd or 3rd gears at any dealer or GM parts warehouse, in the nation. WTF is that.
Either I'm crazy, or hard parts for this trans have gone bye-bye....hopefully, I'm just crazy.
It went from "this doesn't look so bad" to "this is really bad"
Basically, the only parts that *are* good are:
The case,
2 of three shift forks
5th gear (counter and main),
Revese gear and hub & sleeve and idler
first gear and hub
Everything else is bad.
Just quickly adding up from some prices I can find
Countershaft - $289
Bearing & Seal kit - $254
Syncro kit - $389
small parts - $159
input shaft - $110
Main shaft - $120
3-4 Shift fork - $50
2nd gear - $90
3rd gear - $110
And a few other small parts probably:
THat's $1571. Now, can I find cheaper parts, probably. How much cheaper and how much quality will I sacrifice, that's another story. These prices I just got from various interweb sources. To make matters worse, it seems real New Venture parts are become more and more scarce. ANd there's not much places I found find that are even stocking all these parts. I have yet to find where I can get a countershaft or mainshaft, New Venture or China, 0 sources I can find thus far. The three places that did have them, say they no longer do. Several places have said they cannot rebuild the NV4500 anymore due to a shortage of parts. So, WTF is that. I havn't called around to local or other known real places yet that don't advertise on the interweb much, (it is sunday), but what I'm finding on the interweb is rather disturbing.
Am I just not looking in the right places or what? Even the General, who is supposed to stock parts for 10 years (last year for this trans was 2002 in P chassis I beilive, and 2000 on CK 1-tons), I have a direct number for and automated insider service parts line, it tells where available, and GM employee price, (thanks to my retired dad & active brother who work at the general), they are not in stock, anywhere, no GM parts countershafts or mainshafts, 2nd or 3rd gears at any dealer or GM parts warehouse, in the nation. WTF is that.
Either I'm crazy, or hard parts for this trans have gone bye-bye....hopefully, I'm just crazy.
original balzer
1/2 ton status
I know this doesnt help much right now but the (external slave cyl) bell housing that works is for a 89 3/4t with the sm465 4 speed. Mine was $68 several years ago. Get rid of the throwout/slave set up while you have it all appart.
bp71k5
3/4 ton status
That's about what a rebuilt unit costs. try smartpartsauto.com, it's where I got mine.
The trouble with the rebuilds is, you don't know what kind of parts they are using, I guess that's not terribly important, but I definitly don't want brass syncros. Plus, mine is already apart, and I know what parts are bad. If I call for a rebuilt version, it's going to be pretty hard to keep an honest tone when I know most of the main pieces are junk. Plus I can't really ship back pieces. It is already degreased and all the parts cleaned up, mabey that will offset the bad counter and mainshafts and 2nd and 3rd gear. 
Mabey I screwed myself by trying to do this, I've never done one, and I wanted to learn. I never fathomed parts would be tough to come by, or that expensive.
uch:
Mabey I screwed myself by trying to do this, I've never done one, and I wanted to learn. I never fathomed parts would be tough to come by, or that expensive.
uch:
original balzer
1/2 ton status
You may be better off going this route.
http://www.nv4500.com/index.php/cPath/3141
These guys have always helped me I use the salt lake city location of corse. Get ahold of them by phone see what they can do.
http://www.sixstates.com/products/products.jsp
just some other sites that may help
http://www.quad4x4.com/4x4%20Service%20Manual%20Tech%20Library.htm
http://www.drivetrain.com/NV4500parts.html
http://tbtrans.com/transmission_parts.htm
http://tbtrans.com/manual_transmission.htm << just over $1000 exchange for a rebuilt
http://tbtrans.com/used_gears_and_parts.htm << lists used parts
http://www.nv4500.com/index.php/cPath/3141
These guys have always helped me I use the salt lake city location of corse. Get ahold of them by phone see what they can do.
http://www.sixstates.com/products/products.jsp
just some other sites that may help
http://www.quad4x4.com/4x4%20Service%20Manual%20Tech%20Library.htm
http://www.drivetrain.com/NV4500parts.html
http://tbtrans.com/transmission_parts.htm
http://tbtrans.com/manual_transmission.htm << just over $1000 exchange for a rebuilt
http://tbtrans.com/used_gears_and_parts.htm << lists used parts
Last edited:
Believe it or not the biggest help I got in sourcing these parts was from Kyle at NWF. I used www.quad4x4.com as a 'catalog', then asked Kyle to see what he could come up with. I made several smaller orders as I could afford stuff...
Give Kyle a chance, and you might be surprised. He definitely has sources I haven't been able to find, plus he gets some good price breaks from them. I don't recall seeing "made in China" on anything I got either.
I'm surprised the mainshaft didn't make it...
Rene
Give Kyle a chance, and you might be surprised. He definitely has sources I haven't been able to find, plus he gets some good price breaks from them. I don't recall seeing "made in China" on anything I got either.
I'm surprised the mainshaft didn't make it...
Rene
Thanks for the sources above, I've seen alot of them, couple that I have not, those used parts look interesting.
Yeah, the mainshaft has some major gouge marks on the very front, that bearing had disentigrated and welded itself to the shaft, when I pressed off the input shaft (shouldn't have to do that, BTW, it should just pull right off), it chewed up the front of the shaft, it was probably already gone from the disentigrated bearing though. The 3rd and 2nd gear splines are wrecked from, again, just pulling the gear off (the manual says once the lock rings are removed, the gear should just pull off, reverse and 1st did, 2nd and 3rd, had to put the puller on them), I think those 2 gears got majorly hot during the coastdown, they were closest to the input/4th gear where it locked to the countershaft, they are tinged blue, and the whole front part of the mainshaft is blue as well. If I didn't care so much about the forced heat treatment of the shaft, I could probably put that shaft in my lathe, clean up the bearing surfaces and perhaps find some oversized bearing, but that shaft is only $110 surpringly, well, if you can find one, I'm not so sure i could find those caged needle bearings in oversize as well.
I have the 1st year for single piece countershaft, now that is some piece of machining there. And now, it's a paper weight, as Rene mentioned 1st off.
Basically, everything forward of 1st gear, is toasted. There were several smaller pieces, washers, teflon spacer, etc in that area, which were not there, they just became part of another piece or disentigrated. I can't believe that much damage occurred during a 1/2mi coast down, and that the tires just didn't lock up. Oh well.
Oh, BTW, original_balzer, in 96, GM changed the bellhousing to tranny pattern (different NV4500 casting, actually they just merged with the dodge casting from what I read) , an older bell won't work from what I can tell. Believe me, I'd love nothing better than to ditch that POS internal slave.
Yeah, the mainshaft has some major gouge marks on the very front, that bearing had disentigrated and welded itself to the shaft, when I pressed off the input shaft (shouldn't have to do that, BTW, it should just pull right off), it chewed up the front of the shaft, it was probably already gone from the disentigrated bearing though. The 3rd and 2nd gear splines are wrecked from, again, just pulling the gear off (the manual says once the lock rings are removed, the gear should just pull off, reverse and 1st did, 2nd and 3rd, had to put the puller on them), I think those 2 gears got majorly hot during the coastdown, they were closest to the input/4th gear where it locked to the countershaft, they are tinged blue, and the whole front part of the mainshaft is blue as well. If I didn't care so much about the forced heat treatment of the shaft, I could probably put that shaft in my lathe, clean up the bearing surfaces and perhaps find some oversized bearing, but that shaft is only $110 surpringly, well, if you can find one, I'm not so sure i could find those caged needle bearings in oversize as well.
I have the 1st year for single piece countershaft, now that is some piece of machining there. And now, it's a paper weight, as Rene mentioned 1st off.
Basically, everything forward of 1st gear, is toasted. There were several smaller pieces, washers, teflon spacer, etc in that area, which were not there, they just became part of another piece or disentigrated. I can't believe that much damage occurred during a 1/2mi coast down, and that the tires just didn't lock up. Oh well.
Oh, BTW, original_balzer, in 96, GM changed the bellhousing to tranny pattern (different NV4500 casting, actually they just merged with the dodge casting from what I read) , an older bell won't work from what I can tell. Believe me, I'd love nothing better than to ditch that POS internal slave.
Last edited:
My '95 case won't work with the SM465 pattern either. I got the aftermarket version from AA.
Mine was about as bad, but the mainshaft survived. On mine the input got so hot it went soft and sheared off. Got hot enough to fry the kevlar crap on the synchro's, but there was no blueing on the mainshaft.
Rene
Mine was about as bad, but the mainshaft survived. On mine the input got so hot it went soft and sheared off. Got hot enough to fry the kevlar crap on the synchro's, but there was no blueing on the mainshaft.
Rene
Yeah, that kevlar was caked on everything in the front area.
I just overhauled an NV4500 in my shop and the only special tool I had to get was a press for the bearings and a couple of the gears, everything else I had on hand, or was able to rig something up.
I bought an overhaul manual online for 25 odd bucks, and found it was extremely useful and pointed out a number of things that you otherwise could miss.
My transmission was in rough shape too -- I had to replace my input shaft (grooved pilot bearing surface like your's), the counter gear to the input shaft gear (someone had overhauled my transmission and put in a later model gearset, I wanted the early model gearsetup) as well as both my overdrive gears. I also replaced all my shift forks, bearings, syncro rings and small parts.
I spent about $1200 on my overhaul, which is cheaper than I could get a new one for, and gave me the peace of mind knowing that it was done right with quality parts.
I got all of my parts through a local outfit called "The Gear Center" They have practically every bit or piece of NV4500s in stock either at their outlet, or in their warehouse in town. Their prices were very fair, and I understand that they do ship internationally too. The Gear Center staff are NV4500 experts. A lot of their business is performing retrofits, and doing overhauls on these things.
If you look them up on google, call the Edmonton south side shop (on 75th street) and ask for Dave, he knows his stuff very well.
I bought an overhaul manual online for 25 odd bucks, and found it was extremely useful and pointed out a number of things that you otherwise could miss.
My transmission was in rough shape too -- I had to replace my input shaft (grooved pilot bearing surface like your's), the counter gear to the input shaft gear (someone had overhauled my transmission and put in a later model gearset, I wanted the early model gearsetup) as well as both my overdrive gears. I also replaced all my shift forks, bearings, syncro rings and small parts.
I spent about $1200 on my overhaul, which is cheaper than I could get a new one for, and gave me the peace of mind knowing that it was done right with quality parts.
I got all of my parts through a local outfit called "The Gear Center" They have practically every bit or piece of NV4500s in stock either at their outlet, or in their warehouse in town. Their prices were very fair, and I understand that they do ship internationally too. The Gear Center staff are NV4500 experts. A lot of their business is performing retrofits, and doing overhauls on these things.
If you look them up on google, call the Edmonton south side shop (on 75th street) and ask for Dave, he knows his stuff very well.
Well, I found a place with some parts, the non-NV stuff seems to be more readily available, although I wonder about quality, but that said, I think almost every NV4500 sold in the last 1 to mabey 2years doesn't have 'genuine' NV parts.
ANyhow, I returned last friday to my $1000 box-o-parts, and started assembly today.
I already had everything degreased and ready to be re-assembled. I even had my daughter throw a coat of, ahhmm, yellow, paint (it's all I had!) on the case just because I hate rust.
Went pretty smooth, I got the mainshaft all assembled, although I wish I would have known theres a difference between the 3rd gear thrust washer and the reverse gear thrust washer, there are visable differences, but very minor, of course I choose the wrong one for reverse, and when I turned to put the 3rd gear one on, it has a couple thousands smaller inner diamater and it doesn't fit, then I realised I would have to pull off the bearing behind reverse I just pressed on (hopefully without destroying it, it's $25-$30 by itself!) to get the thrust washer back off.
Anyhow, I got that all straighted out, and got the countershaft all setup with bearings, installed it, only to find the shims in the kit I have don't have the right one to put my countershaft endplay in proper spec. The kit comes with .015, .018, .024. I need a .022, if I put the 24 one on I have no endplay, and if I put the .018 one on I have 1thousands too much endplay. So I'll have to source some shims tomorrow.
So I'm dead in the water until I can get the proper size shim.
I think someone just screwed up the packaging of the shims, the mainshaft shims have a .015, 0.020 and 0.024, with those three you should be able to put it within the 0.002-.006 range they specify. I think the same three thickness countershaft shims should have been packaged, but, I got what I got. Oh well...not like I was planning on finishing today. I'm still waiting on my 5quarts of syntorq ($$$$$$$) from a mailorder place. I bought 1qt at the GM dealer, $24.50. Ouch. I'm using that for assembly lube. The 5 fill qts I'm getting from a mail-order dodge parts place that has same fluid for $16.50qt. Still pricey, but $8/qt less.
ANyhow, I returned last friday to my $1000 box-o-parts, and started assembly today.
I already had everything degreased and ready to be re-assembled. I even had my daughter throw a coat of, ahhmm, yellow, paint (it's all I had!) on the case just because I hate rust.
Went pretty smooth, I got the mainshaft all assembled, although I wish I would have known theres a difference between the 3rd gear thrust washer and the reverse gear thrust washer, there are visable differences, but very minor, of course I choose the wrong one for reverse, and when I turned to put the 3rd gear one on, it has a couple thousands smaller inner diamater and it doesn't fit, then I realised I would have to pull off the bearing behind reverse I just pressed on (hopefully without destroying it, it's $25-$30 by itself!) to get the thrust washer back off.
Anyhow, I got that all straighted out, and got the countershaft all setup with bearings, installed it, only to find the shims in the kit I have don't have the right one to put my countershaft endplay in proper spec. The kit comes with .015, .018, .024. I need a .022, if I put the 24 one on I have no endplay, and if I put the .018 one on I have 1thousands too much endplay. So I'll have to source some shims tomorrow.
So I'm dead in the water until I can get the proper size shim.I think someone just screwed up the packaging of the shims, the mainshaft shims have a .015, 0.020 and 0.024, with those three you should be able to put it within the 0.002-.006 range they specify. I think the same three thickness countershaft shims should have been packaged, but, I got what I got. Oh well...not like I was planning on finishing today. I'm still waiting on my 5quarts of syntorq ($$$$$$$) from a mailorder place. I bought 1qt at the GM dealer, $24.50. Ouch. I'm using that for assembly lube. The 5 fill qts I'm getting from a mail-order dodge parts place that has same fluid for $16.50qt. Still pricey, but $8/qt less.
Well, this really blows.
My whole build is help up because I need a $3 shim.
There's only one place online I can find that will sell the shims in various sizes, and that guy refused to send next day air (said he couldn't, but then said he could ups, if he can UPS, he can next day). GM dealer had the NV shim kit, but the 'shim kit' cost $56 and they couldn't tell me what shims were actually in it.
I'm out of town again next week, so my truck is down for another 2 weeks.
I tried 2 local trans shop, they said they could get, but it would be at least 4 days. Nice.
This transmission is really starting to pee me off. It's supposed to be strong and simple. I find, after the fact, that it has various troubles, some of them major, needs $100 of special oil to make it 'work right' and parts are almost non-existant or very expensive.
Errrrrrr.........
My whole build is help up because I need a $3 shim.
There's only one place online I can find that will sell the shims in various sizes, and that guy refused to send next day air (said he couldn't, but then said he could ups, if he can UPS, he can next day). GM dealer had the NV shim kit, but the 'shim kit' cost $56 and they couldn't tell me what shims were actually in it.
I'm out of town again next week, so my truck is down for another 2 weeks.
I tried 2 local trans shop, they said they could get, but it would be at least 4 days. Nice.
This transmission is really starting to pee me off. It's supposed to be strong and simple. I find, after the fact, that it has various troubles, some of them major, needs $100 of special oil to make it 'work right' and parts are almost non-existant or very expensive.
Errrrrrr.........
MaxPF
1/2 ton status
I wonder why parts are so hard to find for a relatively modern tranny? Parts for most of the older 4 speeds are still seem to have decent availability...
buffblazer
1/2 ton status
you were saying $1500 to rebuild it just in parts? cant you buy a new one for that? or go get a junkyard one for $400 with low miles. just my .2 cents
