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Optima batteries, 4/10/18...battery status update
- Thread starter 76zimmer
- Start date
Snap On guys are like that, well, many.. it must be a prime edict in the corporate world, always divert or deny any and all blame at all costs..
Well, I'm not gonna beat on Jim, he is trying to help everyone out. But, that said... when it has bee proven that my draw has always been in the 53 mA range and I do not have short or some crazy crap happening to me system that the suggestion is to go to a dual battery system then I'm gonna say the batteries are just crap.
I had a 2+ year old die hard working just fine in the truck in it's current configuration. I was just thinking that maybe a I'd "upgrade" to an optima when it is easy to see that they have issues with draw rates over a long period of time.
This thing is a daily driver. It doesn't sit for more then 5 days at ANY given time. I know the truck is fine and the issue has to be with the +50 mA draw. There are too many of us with the same issue.
Besides, have you seen my wife's tits? There is no way it is my issue!!!
I had a 2+ year old die hard working just fine in the truck in it's current configuration. I was just thinking that maybe a I'd "upgrade" to an optima when it is easy to see that they have issues with draw rates over a long period of time.
This thing is a daily driver. It doesn't sit for more then 5 days at ANY given time. I know the truck is fine and the issue has to be with the +50 mA draw. There are too many of us with the same issue.
Besides, have you seen my wife's tits? There is no way it is my issue!!!
You don't have to. Things have become fairly self-evident.
Just go back to the off-color comments - by OptimaJim, nonetheless - on a potential
'Optima Wall of Shame' earlier in this thread.It becomes very clear that these guys at Optima think that anyone who bought a Red Top for anything but starting a vehicle is a sucker who deserves to be separated from his/her money.
That means they know that each single sale of a Red Top to the 4x4 community is basically a scam.
And if you think I'm bashing Optima batteries, you'd be wrong. There are Optimas of all colors in our two trucks at this time - and I hope they won't have to be replaced. However, OptimaJim and OptimaBill on the various boards are doing all the damage by their lonely selves. Just read their posts, and you'll see that the fault never ever lies with an Optima battery - it's always the fault of the Optima customer.
Then again, what would one expect from a company representative?
YOU bought the wrong Optima product in the first place, YOU are discharging the precious Optima product too much, YOUR alternator sucks and doesn't charge the battery sufficiently, YOU are at fault for not detecting that infamous parasitic draw that is really at fault for all YOUR 'perceived' battery problems, YOU are not using the right procedure to recharge the battery to try and bring it back... get the message?
The winch in the profile pic was when I first brought the truck home. It was not only broken, but not connected and I did not have the Optima at that time. The winch and wiring for the winch was removed months previous to the Optima being installed...but I'm repeating myself again. When I was driving this truck regularly it would never hold a charge if not driven at least once every three days. After three days it'd be dead enough to not want to start. It exhibited this behavior from the outset.
I brought the battery down to 11 volts and re-charged it. I then disconnected it and it has sat for a couple of months since. It's dead again. I'm not only done with Optima, I'm done with this thread and the insinuations that go with it. I won't be buying another Optima, and I certainly would not recommend this product to anyone I know.
What do you consider not cheap? Optima's are near $200 I remember when they were $100.
Do you know what the lifeline typically run for a boat application with a V8.
Well, I went and pick up an interstate battery and while I was there I had the guy use his battery tester on the optima.
When he first connected the tester the battery read 12.84. I charged it last night and then drove it over to the Interstate battery warehouse.
As you can see the battery failed the load test and the guy told me what I already knew, the battery is crap.
I'll never buy one again.
When he first connected the tester the battery read 12.84. I charged it last night and then drove it over to the Interstate battery warehouse.
As you can see the battery failed the load test and the guy told me what I already knew, the battery is crap.
I'll never buy one again.
4xcrazy
3/4 ton status
Well, I went and pick up an interstate battery and while I was there I had the guy use his battery tester on the optima.
When he first connected the tester the battery read 12.84. I charged it last night and then drove it over to the Interstate battery warehouse.
As you can see the battery failed the load test and the guy told me what I already knew, the battery is crap.
I'll never buy one again.
typical for a bad cell. Reads 12+v sitting there, drops way down and won't start anything when loaded.
gotblazers
1/2 ton status
I dont believe we have. Pig pen?
Vetteracerx, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you had with your RedTop, but I am glad to hear your Corvette doesn't have issues with a parasitic draw. That would suggest you probably drive it often enough to keep the battery maintained, which is not always the case for Corvette owners.
nsxxtreme, as I indicted in the previous post, which you did not quote, those calculations assume a battery is fully-charged when parked (which is not always the case) and does not take into consideration the impact of climate, which can lengthen (moderate temps) or shorten (heat) those timeframes. The best way to verify the health battery is to load test it after attempting to fully-charge it. However, most folks do not have load testers in their garage and would rather not haul a battery into a retailer to have it load-tested. In most cases, if a battery can hold voltage for 12-24 hours when disconnected from a vehicle, it will work just fine in a vehicle.
Tim, your parasitic draw by itself shouldn't be an issue and based on what you posted about the voltage drop when it was fully-charged, it does sound like the battery needs to be replaced, so I will send you a PM to follow up.
ryoken, while not all AGM battery manufacturers still use pure lead, we still do and when other manufacturers do the same, they aren't shy about letting folks know. 4xcrazy, a large percentage of automotive batteries are produced by three manufacturers, although there are several other manufacturers in addition to those. We are owned by JCI, which would be considered one of the “Big 3,” but we manufacture all of our own batteries in our own facility and we never re-brand or re-spec our batteries for any of our retail partners.
jms, I really am trying to help folks but at the same time, I'm not allowed to hand replacement batteries out like candy and in many cases (not all) there is an underlying issue unrelated to the battery that is causing a problem attributed to the battery. My ability to help is also limited by the information folks are able to provide to me.
I first asked Tim to measure his parasitic draw nearly two years ago. When he measured it and posted the numbers, they were ridiculously low (.06 milliamps), especially considering his truck has an alarm. I did my best to suggest the numbers Tim provided might not be accurate, even posting a picture of the draw on my pickup truck, which I think measured 18 milliamps. It wasn't until last week, that nsxxtreme finally convinced Tim that his decimal points were in the wrong place and that his draw wasn't .06 milliamps, but actually 60 milliamps.
Even with that, when Tim previously posted the draw he measured with his car alarm on, he indicated it was .06 milliamps, which we can now convert to mean 60 milliamps. He followed that up by indicating he measured the draw with his alarm off at .058 milliamps, which even if we translated correctly into milliamps, would suggest his car alarm only draws 2 milliamps. That is simply not realistic.
However, Tim did indicate that when he replaced his YellowTop under warranty last summer, that after parking his truck with the alarm on for three days, his battery was discharged down to 12.57 volts. If his battery was fully-charged when he parked his truck, that would indicate the parasitic draw on his truck discharged his battery by about 35% over three days. In addition to his existing parasitic draw, an additional 2-milliamp draw from an alarm will not discharge a battery to that extent in three days time.
As for the load test, batteries should be fully-charged (or attempted to be fully-charged) before load testing. At 12.84 volts, his battery was about 20% discharged when the test was performed.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
nsxxtreme, as I indicted in the previous post, which you did not quote, those calculations assume a battery is fully-charged when parked (which is not always the case) and does not take into consideration the impact of climate, which can lengthen (moderate temps) or shorten (heat) those timeframes. The best way to verify the health battery is to load test it after attempting to fully-charge it. However, most folks do not have load testers in their garage and would rather not haul a battery into a retailer to have it load-tested. In most cases, if a battery can hold voltage for 12-24 hours when disconnected from a vehicle, it will work just fine in a vehicle.
Tim, your parasitic draw by itself shouldn't be an issue and based on what you posted about the voltage drop when it was fully-charged, it does sound like the battery needs to be replaced, so I will send you a PM to follow up.
ryoken, while not all AGM battery manufacturers still use pure lead, we still do and when other manufacturers do the same, they aren't shy about letting folks know. 4xcrazy, a large percentage of automotive batteries are produced by three manufacturers, although there are several other manufacturers in addition to those. We are owned by JCI, which would be considered one of the “Big 3,” but we manufacture all of our own batteries in our own facility and we never re-brand or re-spec our batteries for any of our retail partners.
jms, I really am trying to help folks but at the same time, I'm not allowed to hand replacement batteries out like candy and in many cases (not all) there is an underlying issue unrelated to the battery that is causing a problem attributed to the battery. My ability to help is also limited by the information folks are able to provide to me.
I first asked Tim to measure his parasitic draw nearly two years ago. When he measured it and posted the numbers, they were ridiculously low (.06 milliamps), especially considering his truck has an alarm. I did my best to suggest the numbers Tim provided might not be accurate, even posting a picture of the draw on my pickup truck, which I think measured 18 milliamps. It wasn't until last week, that nsxxtreme finally convinced Tim that his decimal points were in the wrong place and that his draw wasn't .06 milliamps, but actually 60 milliamps.
Even with that, when Tim previously posted the draw he measured with his car alarm on, he indicated it was .06 milliamps, which we can now convert to mean 60 milliamps. He followed that up by indicating he measured the draw with his alarm off at .058 milliamps, which even if we translated correctly into milliamps, would suggest his car alarm only draws 2 milliamps. That is simply not realistic.
However, Tim did indicate that when he replaced his YellowTop under warranty last summer, that after parking his truck with the alarm on for three days, his battery was discharged down to 12.57 volts. If his battery was fully-charged when he parked his truck, that would indicate the parasitic draw on his truck discharged his battery by about 35% over three days. In addition to his existing parasitic draw, an additional 2-milliamp draw from an alarm will not discharge a battery to that extent in three days time.
As for the load test, batteries should be fully-charged (or attempted to be fully-charged) before load testing. At 12.84 volts, his battery was about 20% discharged when the test was performed.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
It's not about handing "replacement batteries out like candy...".
It's about building the darn things so they don't have to be replaced.For a start: Stop making Red Tops. At least stop marketing them to the 4x4 community.
Regardless how I was reporting the numbers we know that even 2 years ago it was 60 mA and that hasn't changed. I've corrected the miss-reported numbers but the draw was never more then 60 mA.
The 53 mA numbers where with the alarm on.
I had a 2 year old die hard in the truck that was working fine and probably should not have replaced it.
I do want to thank you for the time you put into trying to figure out my issues.
The 53 mA numbers where with the alarm on.
I had a 2 year old die hard in the truck that was working fine and probably should not have replaced it.
I do want to thank you for the time you put into trying to figure out my issues.
I don't have an optima, and don't see the need to spend that kinda cash on a battery for my uses, even if it did perform as advertised. I've simply used the store brand batteries with no issues for years.
that said, I've been keeping an eye on this thread because I've never had the chance to watch a big company representative interact with the community like this before and I wanted to see how it went.
initially I really did get the feeling that optimajim was genuinely trying to figure out what was going on and trying to help. however I started to see where some of you were coming from where it seemed that no matter what, he wasn't going to admit that there was anything wrong with the battery.
I was heartened to see that a pm was sent to Tim and maybe there will be a free replacement in the near future, but speaking for the hundreds of guys following this thread, I would have thought better customer relations would have been to bend over backwards a bit more to help these guys out.
it very well may be that they bought the wrong battery for their application, or that they have some other draw problem that needs to be worked out, but with this many eyes on the situation, I'd have either stayed away from posting at all, or gone over the top making the company look good at the cost of just a couple of batteries.
a simple statement like "hey guys, lets see if we can find the extra draw, but either way, lets get these batteries into a local distributor and work on getting you guys a replacement!" goes a long way.
the end results of the thread may have been the same, but it would have been clear from the start that you were here trying to make sure these guys were happy with their optima, not defending the company.
just my 2 cents.
that said, I've been keeping an eye on this thread because I've never had the chance to watch a big company representative interact with the community like this before and I wanted to see how it went.
initially I really did get the feeling that optimajim was genuinely trying to figure out what was going on and trying to help. however I started to see where some of you were coming from where it seemed that no matter what, he wasn't going to admit that there was anything wrong with the battery.
I was heartened to see that a pm was sent to Tim and maybe there will be a free replacement in the near future, but speaking for the hundreds of guys following this thread, I would have thought better customer relations would have been to bend over backwards a bit more to help these guys out.
it very well may be that they bought the wrong battery for their application, or that they have some other draw problem that needs to be worked out, but with this many eyes on the situation, I'd have either stayed away from posting at all, or gone over the top making the company look good at the cost of just a couple of batteries.
a simple statement like "hey guys, lets see if we can find the extra draw, but either way, lets get these batteries into a local distributor and work on getting you guys a replacement!" goes a long way.
the end results of the thread may have been the same, but it would have been clear from the start that you were here trying to make sure these guys were happy with their optima, not defending the company.
just my 2 cents.
I think you ought to work for Optima...it appears you 'get' what customer service is really about.
Vetteracerx
1/2 ton status
Thanks for the reply. OptimaJim. Do they sometimes short internally? It was hot!! I mean hot! it would have burned my hands. I always wondered what happend to it. I do still have one in my 2500 Avalanche and one on the bench.
jms, every battery has a finite lifespan, but we do build our batteries to last up to twice as long as traditional flooded batteries, even the RedTops. We have also made a concerted effort in the last several years to emphasize the need for a battery designed for deep-cycle use, like our YellowTop, within the 4x4 community, especially when folks are using deep-cycle accessories like winches and refrigerators.
ashman, I'm sorry you didn't feel like I bent over backwards enough to help Tim with his issue over the last year and a half. As I indicated before, my ability to help folks online is often limited by their ability to provide me with accurate information about their situation. When Tim first indicated he had a .06-milliamp draw, I encouraged him to re-check his numbers and used the example of Smart John, who initially thought the draw on his Smart Car was only 100 microamps, only to find out it was 10 milliamps.
No one else questioned whether his draw was really .06 milliamps and Tim then indicated he checked the draw both with his alarm on and off and re-posted numbers that we can now all agree were off by several decimal places (if you ever see someone suggest the draw in their truck is .0anything milliamps, it is ok to tell them they are not measuring their draw correctly). When I encouraged Tim again to re-check his numbers, he again insisted they were accurate. I then posted a photograph of my own Fluke meter, as I measured the parasitic draw on my pickup truck, which was just 18 milliamps. By Tim's previous numbers my stock pickup's draw was about 310 times greater than his Suburban's, but still no one else questioned whether Tim's numbers were accurate.
I was really hoping Tim would also post a photo of his parasitic draw test. When he eventually did several months later, nsxxtreme pointed out his miscalculation in less than 10 minutes, which Tim then seemed to accept as fact. Tim is now insisting that his parasitic draw with his alarm on is 53 milliamps. If that is the case, I would really hope he would re-measure his parasitic draw with the alarm off, as he has also previously indicated it was higher than the 53 milliamps he measured with the alarm on, which simply does not make sense.
As for replacing the battery, Tim already did that under warranty last summer and the replacement has done the same thing the previous one did, because his vehicle (and possibly his alarm) is deeply-discharging his battery. Fully-charged Tim's battery should measure about 13.0-13.2 volts and he previously indicated in this thread, that after three days parked with the alarm on, the battery measured 12.57 volts, which is about 35% discharged. At that pace, his battery would be totally discharged in about nine days.
If Tim's battery has a capacity rating of 55 amps when fully-charged, a draw that discharges it in nine days would be closer to 254 milliamps (.254 x 24 hours = 6.11 amps per day. 55 amps divided by 6.11 amps equals about 9 days). It is possible Tim's battery wasn't fully-charged when he parked it for three days with his alarm on, so it is possible that his draw is less than 254 milliamps with his alarm on, but it is likely to be significantly higher than the 53 milliamps he currently believes it to be. Math has never been my strongest suit, so if you or anyone else finds errors in my calculations, please point them out, as I really do want to help Tim.
Vetteracerx, some batteries do have tab corrosion and internal shorts. If you still had that battery we could do a teardown in our lab and determine cause of failure. Be sure to keep the battery on your bench properly-maintained, so it will be ready for use when installed in a vehicle.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
ashman, I'm sorry you didn't feel like I bent over backwards enough to help Tim with his issue over the last year and a half. As I indicated before, my ability to help folks online is often limited by their ability to provide me with accurate information about their situation. When Tim first indicated he had a .06-milliamp draw, I encouraged him to re-check his numbers and used the example of Smart John, who initially thought the draw on his Smart Car was only 100 microamps, only to find out it was 10 milliamps.
No one else questioned whether his draw was really .06 milliamps and Tim then indicated he checked the draw both with his alarm on and off and re-posted numbers that we can now all agree were off by several decimal places (if you ever see someone suggest the draw in their truck is .0anything milliamps, it is ok to tell them they are not measuring their draw correctly). When I encouraged Tim again to re-check his numbers, he again insisted they were accurate. I then posted a photograph of my own Fluke meter, as I measured the parasitic draw on my pickup truck, which was just 18 milliamps. By Tim's previous numbers my stock pickup's draw was about 310 times greater than his Suburban's, but still no one else questioned whether Tim's numbers were accurate.
I was really hoping Tim would also post a photo of his parasitic draw test. When he eventually did several months later, nsxxtreme pointed out his miscalculation in less than 10 minutes, which Tim then seemed to accept as fact. Tim is now insisting that his parasitic draw with his alarm on is 53 milliamps. If that is the case, I would really hope he would re-measure his parasitic draw with the alarm off, as he has also previously indicated it was higher than the 53 milliamps he measured with the alarm on, which simply does not make sense.
As for replacing the battery, Tim already did that under warranty last summer and the replacement has done the same thing the previous one did, because his vehicle (and possibly his alarm) is deeply-discharging his battery. Fully-charged Tim's battery should measure about 13.0-13.2 volts and he previously indicated in this thread, that after three days parked with the alarm on, the battery measured 12.57 volts, which is about 35% discharged. At that pace, his battery would be totally discharged in about nine days.
If Tim's battery has a capacity rating of 55 amps when fully-charged, a draw that discharges it in nine days would be closer to 254 milliamps (.254 x 24 hours = 6.11 amps per day. 55 amps divided by 6.11 amps equals about 9 days). It is possible Tim's battery wasn't fully-charged when he parked it for three days with his alarm on, so it is possible that his draw is less than 254 milliamps with his alarm on, but it is likely to be significantly higher than the 53 milliamps he currently believes it to be. Math has never been my strongest suit, so if you or anyone else finds errors in my calculations, please point them out, as I really do want to help Tim.
Vetteracerx, some batteries do have tab corrosion and internal shorts. If you still had that battery we could do a teardown in our lab and determine cause of failure. Be sure to keep the battery on your bench properly-maintained, so it will be ready for use when installed in a vehicle.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
thanks for the continued replies jim. as I said, this is the first time I've seen a company rep do this kind of conversation on a forum, so I count that in the plus column for you.
my post was trying to get more at tone rather than specifics. I also didn't quite pick up that this has been going on for a year and a half with significant lags in between. I reread and started following the thread just a few months ago.
right or wrong, a lot of the guys seemed to feel like you were dismissing the idea that there could be a problem with the battery. if that wasn't your intent, then it somehow got lost in the text. from your followup, it sounds better, but I'm sure you feel like you are swimming upstream at this point.
my post was trying to get more at tone rather than specifics. I also didn't quite pick up that this has been going on for a year and a half with significant lags in between. I reread and started following the thread just a few months ago.
right or wrong, a lot of the guys seemed to feel like you were dismissing the idea that there could be a problem with the battery. if that wasn't your intent, then it somehow got lost in the text. from your followup, it sounds better, but I'm sure you feel like you are swimming upstream at this point.
REGARDLESS!!!! The optima went dead with a draw of less then 60 mA. When I reported it as .06 it was 60 mA just like I posted in the photo this time around. The draw on the battery is NOT 2.54 like you suggest. If it was like this it would not have taking the battery 6 months to go dead!!! Nothing has changed on the truck since I first put the optima in, NOTHING!!! Get it?
No matter how I reported the numbers the first time it makes no difference the draw was the SAME!
Jim, stop trying to make me the scape goat for this thread and the entire optima battery line of products. You're really starting to rub me the wrong way bud.
I HAD A TWO YEAR OLD DIE HARD IN THE TRUCK THAT WAS WORKING JUST FINE!! IT WASN'T UNTIL I CHANGED OUT TO AN OPTIMA THAT I STARTED HAVING THESE ISSUES!
So here is the no **** video showing the draw with the alarm on. As you can CLEARLY see it never goes over 60 mA and it NEVER DID I don't give a **** if it makes sense to you!!! The POS optima is the trouble.
Jim find some other reason to say the probably is not the battery!! Don't post some crap about how I reported the draw to be .06, it doesn't god damn matter and it isn't the reason for the battery going dead all the damn time. The alarm was not the issue and the draw was not 2.54 amps like you claim.
At this point I couldn't give a **** what you think and they can cram the POS **** battery!
Jim find some other reason to say the probably is not the battery!! Don't post some crap about how I reported the draw to be .06, it doesn't god damn matter and it isn't the reason for the battery going dead all the damn time. The alarm was not the issue and the draw was not 2.54 amps like you claim.
At this point I couldn't give a **** what you think and they can cram the POS **** battery!
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