Panhard end Question?

[Fancy]

I am looking to put a Panhard on my blazer next and was thinking i would like to go with ends that have bushings in them basically for easy of replacement and cheap. (like the link below)

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Ballistic-Forged-Poly-Bushing-263_p_1646.html

However i know the axle dose not move in a straight up and down line so im thinking this might not be a good idea. Has anyone done this? I know i have seen panhards sold with this bushing ends. I'm thinking hiems might be the way to go unless the axle doesn't horizontally shift that much under flex.

Also i have ORDs pitman harm that is "S" shaped i was thinking of doing the same for the panhard (still need to check clearance) But wanted to find out if there was a reason it had to be straight. I know about making as close to the same length and angle for suspension travel.

Thanks

 

[Stomis]

I would highly suggest against a panhard with leafs. It causes binding. Have you looked at heavier duty upper shackle hangers with bigger bushings and cross tied shackles yet?

 

[496truck]

Also i have ORDs pitman harm that is "S" shaped i was thinking of doing the same for the panhard (still need to check clearance) But wanted to find out if there was a reason it had to be straight. I know about making as close to the same length and angle for suspension travel.

Thanks

You must be talking about the drag link. And you must have x-over steering? The pitman arm is bolted directly to the steering box, the drag link goes from the pitman arm to the passenger side knuckle (in x-over form) and has sort of an S but more commonly called a Z bend in it. amIrite?

Jeeps commonly used panhard bars on leaf sprung suspension from the factory for a long time. BUT, their leaf shackles were in the front not the rear like on the GMs. Jeeps used panhard bars because the shackles caused a bit of movement side to side when the steering was turned R or L. The panhard bar kept that movement in check which improved steering response.

In most leaf sprung front axles a panhard bar isn't needed as long as the shackles are located on the opposite side of the steering stuff. There's much less side to side movement allowed on the stationary side of the spring. As Stomis said, HD shackles or even cross tied shackles would be a better/cheaper solution.

Unless, of course, you are running a multi link or radius arm front suspension? In which case a panhard bar would be needed, absolutely.

 

[Deuling]

Unless, of course, you are running a multi link or radius arm front suspension? In which case a panhard bar would be needed, absolutely.

4 link it and full hydro... No panhard bars necessary

 

[Fancy]

496truck: Yes i mean drag link with the Z bend.

As far as cross tied shackle well they are not an option. It is a 52" spring swap with 5" shackle with a stock location beefier rear hanger. No place to cross tie without frame contact.

As far as a panhard bars on a leaf spring suspension. Well not just jeep dose them. Alot of new trucks of all makes and models come with them as well as even a few older rigs.

As for a panhard causing binding. Well there is absolutely no possible way a properly constructed panhard will bind a properly set up suspension. However it is way to hard hard to explain the details and i wish not to further that discussion.

I was just hoping to here from those with panhard bars what ends they used and why.

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

496truck: Yes i mean drag link with the Z bend.

As far as cross tied shackle well they are not an option. It is a 52" spring swap with 5" shackle with a stock location beefier rear hanger. No place to cross tie without frame contact.

As far as a panhard bars on a leaf spring suspension. Well not just jeep dose them. Alot of new trucks of all makes and models come with them as well as even a few older rigs.

As for a panhard causing binding. Well there is absolutely no possible way a properly constructed panhard will bind a properly set up suspension. However it is way to hard hard to explain the details and i wish not to further that discussion.

I was just hoping to here from those with panhard bars what ends they used and why.

A panhard bar with leaf springs IS a conflicting system that will bind, there are no two ways about that. The two cannot travel in exactly the same arc no matter what you do, there will be bind in the suspension.

Yes, there are tons of leaf sprung trucks out there with panhard bars (Jeep YJ's and Superduty Fords mostly). The panhard bar is there for driveability concerns and generally works ok because they have very little suspension travel (say, 4-6" of vertical travel).

So, evaluate if or why you need a panhard bar, but if you do:

Assuming you're using bushings like you show, there is absolutely no reason to bend the tube unless it will hit something. The main reason we bend our draglink tubing is to reduce the angle on the tie rod ends, with bushings you can swing 360 degrees and don't have to worry about that.

Building the panhard bar to be the same length as the draglink means zero bump steer (i.e. the truck steers itself when you hit a bump), a panhard that isn't the same angle and length as the draglink will have bump steer.

 

[Fancy]

Hey Chris, I was actually going to call you and ask your opinion as i will be ordering the Bar from you most likely once i have my mounting and stuff figured out. I was simply thinking of the bend as to match and better align it with the drag link but the more i have been researching it seems the straight bar with hiems is the clear option the ones with the bushings i have seem must be for less suspension traveling trucks like you said.

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Hey Chris, I was actually going to call you and ask your opinion as i will be ordering the Bar from you most likely once i have my mounting and stuff figured out. I was simply thinking of the bend as to match and better align it with the drag link but the more i have been researching it seems the straight bar with hiems is the clear option the ones with the bushings i have seem must be for less suspension traveling trucks like you said.

We can build whatever you want.

Using bushings in a panhard bar will make everything WAY happier, it basically gives another level of "give" to the system when it wants to bind. Using heims is much harder on the spring bushings.

We bend most of our draglinks (depends on application) for several reasons, mostly to clear the engine crossmember on '73-87 Chevy's and also to take the angle off of the tie rod ends: between the way our arms are machined and the bend, trucks with 4-6" of lift typically have minimal joint angle at ride height. That means the most flexibility and the longest joint life.

Bends, however, never change geometry. On a panhard bar (or draglink), it's geometry is simply set by the horizontal and vertical mounting locations.

Long story short, if you're using heims or bushings on a panhard bar, there's no reason to bend the tube unless it crashes into something in suspension travel. Heims and bushings (mounted the correct way) can take virtually any angle you can throw at them.

 

[Fancy]

Well glad i talked to you it seems i had my thinking backwards. I thought from what i was researching heims would be easier on the system. My thinking was that as the leaf spring compresses and stretches the axle moves towards the rear and front or the truck sequentially. Thus giving a Z-axial aspect (asuming faceing the truck you have Y vertical and X horizontal) to the bar moment. I thought that the bushings would limit or fight this aspect.

 

[Stomis]

No bushings will give it some "squish" so that when the panhard bar starts to want to move the axle to the side and the leafs dont it cant absorb it to some degree. With heims it will just immediately bind.

Im having a hard time believing you are having side to side issues with 52s, poly bushings, heavy upper hangers, and only 5in shackles.

What size tires do you run? What is your caster angle? If you have your caster messed up trying to get your pinion angle better (like you're not suppose to) then it can put some serious stress on the steering.

 

[Fancy]

Im pretty sure my castor angle is off. i was actually just going to post about that becuase i have not been able to make any sense of the info i searched.

37" military tires with the re centered h1s

So from what i can tell you want 4-8* and you measure that buy putting an angle finder across the bolts that hold the cap on top of the d60 knuckle.

I'm reading 10* but how accurate is this? and to fix this i just put 4* shims in using two shims on the pass-side.

 

[Stomis]

10* is too much. Spec is 5-7* back, IE the upper balljoint/king pin behind the lower.

Dont stack shims. Take all your shims out and measure you caster, then order the correct degree to solve this. Remember your pinion angle is going to go DOWN and get worse inorder to fix the steering.

 

[sweetk30]

and stay FAR AWAY from ballistic fab A-HOLES

thay have severe bad buissness name and service. been kicked of lots of chat forums now for this .

 

[Fancy]

Stomis: I think you miss understood me. I have no shims currently and i would be ordering 4* to make it a 6* caster angle and i would not nor never stack shims but you do need one shim on top as well as bottom of the spring pack for the passenger side as not to stress the studs and just one on the bottom for the drivers side.

sweetk30: thanks for the heads up! i was looking to order from them but not now i guess. yea there website alone gave me an elitist full of themselves vibe. I try to send my business to ck5 sponsored venders anyway.

 

[Stomis]

Stomis: I think you miss understood me. I have no shims currently and i would be ordering 4* to make it a 6* caster angle and i would not nor never stack shims but you do need one shim on top as well as bottom of the spring pack for the passenger side as not to stress the studs and just one on the bottom for the drivers side.

sweetk30: thanks for the heads up! i was looking to order from them but not now i guess. yea there website alone gave me an elitist full of themselves vibe. I try to send my business to ck5 sponsored venders anyway.

No no need for a shim on top of the spring. Just under. The U bolts will simply rotate a slight amount and seat flush ontop of the spring.

 

[sweetk30]

but on a dana 60 there is the 2 bolts in the pass side diff housing. got to correct the angles for this to not bind the bolts and or be so severe it wont let the heads sit flush on the plate.

 

[Fancy]

It is a front dana 60. there are studs on the passenger side and there needs to be a shim there are you will break them. that is why when you by the kit from kert at DIY4X it comes with three shims.

Not trying to argue but just want it clear in case others read this thread and are confused.

Thansk for the help though!

Also can anyone confirm this is an ok way to measure caster angle? I have heard so many methods.

 

[Stomis]

It is a front dana 60. there are studs on the passenger side and there needs to be a shim there are you will break them. that is why when you by the kit from kert at DIY4X it comes with three shims.

Not trying to argue but just want it clear in case others read this thread and are confused.

Thansk for the help though!

Also can anyone confirm this is an ok way to measure caster angle? I have heard so many methods.

Ah sorry missed that it was a dana 60.

Caster can be measured just like you said. Just make sure your truck is sitting level by putting the angle finder on the flat section of the frame.