I might be able to come by next week if you haven't solved it yet.
CK5
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Problem with Detroit Locker?
- Thread starter colbystephens
- Start date
Cool! Thanks. It occurred to me: Do I need to have my truck in neutral and the rear tires off the ground to test the pinion bearing with the pry bar? I was thinking that if it's on the ground, the ring gear could be putting force the pinion and create too much friction for me to be able to move it. I assume this would be amplified by the fact that the driveway is significantly sloped.
I'll have to try it again on flat ground and on a lift.
Yeah, definitely jack it up and recheck it.
^^^^^^^^ Yeah, what he said! The ring gear cant have any load on it. 
Well, I haven't had a chance to jack it up and look at the pinion bearing yet, but I think I found the problem today. I arrived at work and noticed a bad oil leak under the rear diff. Upon closer investigation I noticed this:
Bad news. I really don't know where to begin on fixing this. What would you do? Repair it, or swap the guts to a new housing, or....?
Repair Considerations:
- Not sure how I'll press it back in there.
- Not sure if I will be able to perfectly dial in the tube rotation (if it's spun, which I don't think it has)
Swap Considerations:
- In some ways I feel better about this option - just have a new housing and weld it up before it gets installed. No questions about tube alignment, etc.
- But then there's swapping gears. I don't want to do it myself. I'd just pay a shop. But that sounds expensive. But then I don't have to do it.
[whining] Both are pretty daunting options for me. I've really lost interest in working on vehicles, so this is all pretty discouraging to me. I love wheeling, but wrenching sucks. #thepriceyoupay I put in this new engine, and I've been itching to get out on some trails. Haven't been out since I returned to Oregon in February. [/whining]
Bad news. I really don't know where to begin on fixing this. What would you do? Repair it, or swap the guts to a new housing, or....?Repair Considerations:
- Not sure how I'll press it back in there.
- Not sure if I will be able to perfectly dial in the tube rotation (if it's spun, which I don't think it has)
Swap Considerations:
- In some ways I feel better about this option - just have a new housing and weld it up before it gets installed. No questions about tube alignment, etc.
- But then there's swapping gears. I don't want to do it myself. I'd just pay a shop. But that sounds expensive. But then I don't have to do it.
[whining] Both are pretty daunting options for me. I've really lost interest in working on vehicles, so this is all pretty discouraging to me. I love wheeling, but wrenching sucks. #thepriceyoupay I put in this new engine, and I've been itching to get out on some trails. Haven't been out since I returned to Oregon in February. [/whining]
natemc: If you want some side work, I'll hire you to do this repair for me.
If I swapped the gears over, can I just reuse all the shims as they're currently installed, or do the gears need to be set up fresh?
I'd definitely do a housing swap if it was my truck.
Been there, fixed that.
Bought a brand new F150 in 1979. Had a small persistent leak where the axle tube went into the housing on the 9 inch. Wasn't even enough to drip, just a wet spot.
Under warranty, so it went back to the dealer.
They said it was a known factory defect, and they had a procedure to fix it.
It took them three tries, but finally no more seep.
About three hard years later, I was under it checking on something, and saw that the axle tube was almost all the way out of the housing. Much farther than yours. I put two jackstands under the two pieces just in case, and investigated.
I discovered the "fix" the dealer had done was massive amounts of black silicone rubber to stop the leak. There was a large factory weld, but all except for about a one inch section was on the housing and had not touched the tube.
That one inch section had finally broken and let the tube slide out.
I jacked it up on the chunk, put a stand under the tube, and slowly let it down until the tube was lightly resting on the stand and the tire was off the ground.
Put a chunk of wood on the hub, and drove the tube back with a sledgehammer. Did not take much. It was only a snug fit and was well greased. Hooked a piece of chain from one spring mount to the other and drove carefully to a local machine shop I knew.
Since the Ford 9 inch is setup externally, we just pulled the axles, and took the entire third member out. The leaf springs had not let the axle tube rotate, as was verified by the two pieces of weld fitting back together.
We took a cutting torch, and "washed" off some of the old weld, and then rewelded it correctly. We added a section of tubing under the existing weld going from the housing to the tube welded in place just in case.
The main reason for puling the third member, was because after the tube fix, we welded a piece of 1/2 inch plate on the bottom of the housing, drilled a hole through both it and the housing, and threaded it with a pipe thread.
An Allen socket pipe plug finished that, and gave me a drain hole at long last.
In your case, I would do one of two things. One: pull that axle, unbolt the tube from the spring, and slide it the rest of the way out. You can mark it or not. You should see the marks where the plug welds marked the tube but did not stick.
Then drill the plug welds out of the housing. slide the tube back in until you see the marks through the holes. Then plug weld it correctly.
Two: Drive it back in, and do a continuous weld around the junction of the tube to the housing.
If you don't let it get too hot, in other words, weld a while then let it cool, you should be able to get by with just an oil change to get rid of any burned oil.
Like I say, the springs should not let it rotate much if any at all. Jack it up and support both the chunk and the tube to eliminate any droop, and you should be fine
It looks like a worse job than it is.
Bought a brand new F150 in 1979. Had a small persistent leak where the axle tube went into the housing on the 9 inch. Wasn't even enough to drip, just a wet spot.
Under warranty, so it went back to the dealer.
They said it was a known factory defect, and they had a procedure to fix it.
It took them three tries, but finally no more seep.
About three hard years later, I was under it checking on something, and saw that the axle tube was almost all the way out of the housing. Much farther than yours. I put two jackstands under the two pieces just in case, and investigated.
I discovered the "fix" the dealer had done was massive amounts of black silicone rubber to stop the leak. There was a large factory weld, but all except for about a one inch section was on the housing and had not touched the tube.
That one inch section had finally broken and let the tube slide out.
I jacked it up on the chunk, put a stand under the tube, and slowly let it down until the tube was lightly resting on the stand and the tire was off the ground.
Put a chunk of wood on the hub, and drove the tube back with a sledgehammer. Did not take much. It was only a snug fit and was well greased. Hooked a piece of chain from one spring mount to the other and drove carefully to a local machine shop I knew.
Since the Ford 9 inch is setup externally, we just pulled the axles, and took the entire third member out. The leaf springs had not let the axle tube rotate, as was verified by the two pieces of weld fitting back together.
We took a cutting torch, and "washed" off some of the old weld, and then rewelded it correctly. We added a section of tubing under the existing weld going from the housing to the tube welded in place just in case.
The main reason for puling the third member, was because after the tube fix, we welded a piece of 1/2 inch plate on the bottom of the housing, drilled a hole through both it and the housing, and threaded it with a pipe thread.
An Allen socket pipe plug finished that, and gave me a drain hole at long last.
In your case, I would do one of two things. One: pull that axle, unbolt the tube from the spring, and slide it the rest of the way out. You can mark it or not. You should see the marks where the plug welds marked the tube but did not stick.
Then drill the plug welds out of the housing. slide the tube back in until you see the marks through the holes. Then plug weld it correctly.
Two: Drive it back in, and do a continuous weld around the junction of the tube to the housing.
If you don't let it get too hot, in other words, weld a while then let it cool, you should be able to get by with just an oil change to get rid of any burned oil.
Like I say, the springs should not let it rotate much if any at all. Jack it up and support both the chunk and the tube to eliminate any droop, and you should be fine
It looks like a worse job than it is.
Why?
Fordum: Your method sounds pretty straight forward. Why do I want to let the welds cool? Seems like with welding to cast iron, I always hear of guys preheating everything and keeping it hot during welding. Then try to slow the cooling of the weld as much as possible to prevent warp.
runamok151
1 ton status
That sucks. The good news is that it's the back axle. No caster to worry about. I'd do like fordum said. Drive it back together, keeping as straight as possible (springs should do most of that), then get a pro welder to weld it back up.
The housing isn't cast iron btw. It's cast steel and quite weldable with the proper fill material, pre and post heat treatments.
I'd replace the housing because it is never an easy task to get it perfectly lined back up again. The tube won't be perfectly round, nor will the housing be either. It's a lot easier to swap gears into a fresh housing then it will be to make sure your spindles are perfectly lined up with the splines in the locker, that your camber is good and that your rear tires are still square to both each other and the axle. I've broken the front housing in Penny in a similar fashion a couple times now and I've never been able to get it repaired right, even after multiple attempts. I've just recently bought a new axle housing to make it right.
I'd replace the housing because it is never an easy task to get it perfectly lined back up again. The tube won't be perfectly round, nor will the housing be either. It's a lot easier to swap gears into a fresh housing then it will be to make sure your spindles are perfectly lined up with the splines in the locker, that your camber is good and that your rear tires are still square to both each other and the axle. I've broken the front housing in Penny in a similar fashion a couple times now and I've never been able to get it repaired right, even after multiple attempts. I've just recently bought a new axle housing to make it right.
Dang. That makes a lot of sense. And I don't want it to.
Colby, Russel is right, but his problem is different. The front end is many times more critical as to alignment than the rear. Plus, if his is coil springs, he has another strike against him. Coils with the radius arms are not going to hold things in place like leafs.
No more than your tube has slid out, there should not be any damage to the parts. There is still lots of support for the load.
Plus I seem to see lots of scars and scratches, some of them going from the housing to the tube. Easy to see if they line back up.
And, as to why let the weld cool, that was me taking a shortcut. Sounded logical in my head as I was typing it. I did not care about letting the weld cool, I was trying to prevent you from having to tear the rear end down.
I had figured on you welding it with it still assembled, and I did not want to get the bearings too hot. You will cook the oil in the tube under the weld, which is why I suggested an oil change afterward. If you had to take the guts out to weld it, you might as well replace the housing, so I was trying to get you back on the road quick, cheap and well repaired.
If you are worried about strength, it would be a simple matter to cut some gussets to weld from the housing to the tube. Might want to run a bead around the seam on the other side while you have a welder running.
As for getting the tube back in, I suspect if you get the weight of the truck off it, it will drive right back in. If not, just park next to a big tree or strong wall, put a hydraulic jack between the solid structure and the wheel hub and jack away.
No more than your tube has slid out, there should not be any damage to the parts. There is still lots of support for the load.
Plus I seem to see lots of scars and scratches, some of them going from the housing to the tube. Easy to see if they line back up.
And, as to why let the weld cool, that was me taking a shortcut. Sounded logical in my head as I was typing it. I did not care about letting the weld cool, I was trying to prevent you from having to tear the rear end down.
I had figured on you welding it with it still assembled, and I did not want to get the bearings too hot. You will cook the oil in the tube under the weld, which is why I suggested an oil change afterward. If you had to take the guts out to weld it, you might as well replace the housing, so I was trying to get you back on the road quick, cheap and well repaired.
If you are worried about strength, it would be a simple matter to cut some gussets to weld from the housing to the tube. Might want to run a bead around the seam on the other side while you have a welder running.
As for getting the tube back in, I suspect if you get the weight of the truck off it, it will drive right back in. If not, just park next to a big tree or strong wall, put a hydraulic jack between the solid structure and the wheel hub and jack away.
BTW, the housing might be cast, or weldable steel. If its cast, use a high nickle rod or wire, and it will probably do fine.
One of the reasons for doing the plug welds, is production cost. Instead of using nickle weld rod, and a heat treat oven to let the weld cool slowly, the factory just pressed the tubes in, stuck a rod in the drilled hole in the housing and welded to the tube.
The weld was continued until the hole was filled. If the plug stuck to the housing, great. If not, it would be stuck to the tube and would mechanically lock the tube to the housing. Its not uncommon to see oil seepage around the plug welds and the seam of the joint.
Most of the housings got a bead of high quality sealer around the end of the tube on the inside after welding to prevent that.
In your case, the weld did not stick to the tube correctly.
Almost all the aftermarket rear end builders weld all the way around the tube if its for a high load situation.
One of the reasons for doing the plug welds, is production cost. Instead of using nickle weld rod, and a heat treat oven to let the weld cool slowly, the factory just pressed the tubes in, stuck a rod in the drilled hole in the housing and welded to the tube.
The weld was continued until the hole was filled. If the plug stuck to the housing, great. If not, it would be stuck to the tube and would mechanically lock the tube to the housing. Its not uncommon to see oil seepage around the plug welds and the seam of the joint.
Most of the housings got a bead of high quality sealer around the end of the tube on the inside after welding to prevent that.
In your case, the weld did not stick to the tube correctly.
Almost all the aftermarket rear end builders weld all the way around the tube if its for a high load situation.
If you have a new housing, it's literally a few bolts to swap the gearset over, a driveshaft to pull, and u bolts to pull.
Just need to check the gear pattern.
Nice thing about the 14ff is the crush sleeve is all part of the pinion setup and it all comes out as one unit with that flange. So you don't even need to mess with setting up preload etc.
Colby, i would try repairing it first. If you can get the tube back in all the way and weld it, you might be done after an oil change. The 14ff has enough beef to take that much heat without damaging the bearings as long as you let it cool completely before use.
Worst case scenario on this is its almost a free fix if you have a welder. If it doesn't work, then you know you need to source a new housing.
When you get to the gear set up stuff, you may or may not be able to drop in your existing gear set to the new housing. Take a quick look at the numbers on the pinion gear face for each diff and you will know how close you are to start.
Worst case scenario on this is its almost a free fix if you have a welder. If it doesn't work, then you know you need to source a new housing.
When you get to the gear set up stuff, you may or may not be able to drop in your existing gear set to the new housing. Take a quick look at the numbers on the pinion gear face for each diff and you will know how close you are to start.
Ok guys. I may be a total dumbass. Probably. Looking at older pics of my 14 bolt, it has that taper from years ago. Other pics of 14 bolts online also show that taper. Ugh. I'm going to put it on jack stands today and see if my problem is the pinion bearing.
