Propane or diesel???

[lak2004]

Well I was planning on picking up 1 good running 6.2 and a second one for parts, but diesel fuel is a little over $4.00 here right now and only getting higher.

So I am wondering if I should just build up the 350 I have to run propane, I have already researched both to death and have looked through everyones builds and all that good stuff .

Just wondering what the brotherhood thinks about it?

It would be more work to go diesel and I would have to find someone to help me get the engines and some other stuff from ND to CO. So thats why I am starting to lean back to propane.

I would just have to pull the heads off my 350 and get them machined and maybe change out pistons and such and get all the stuff for the propane. Which would be easier for me because I dont have the space to swap engines really.
So what say you fair brotherin?

 

[supersize75k5]

you could convert to chev-ro-legs


great gas milage!

 

[noJeepshere]

Check out electrolysis of water. it's the theory behind hydrogen powered cars. my roommate built a setup that uses electricity to break down water into H H O, and feeds that to the engine. he "reportedly" made his 96 f*rd exploder get 35mpg on a test run. it can be adapted to work on any engine. it also made his V6 feel like a V8. if anyone asks why we havent had this for a long time, it's something about a government conspiracy I'm going to be putting one on my Yukon in the next few weeks before I head home for spring break, to test the theory.

I voted propane because it already gets better economy then gas and burns cleaner, plus with an electrolysis setup, will burn very little. but diesel will get very good economy as well.

my $0.02

 

[noJeepshere]

you could convert to chev-ro-legs


great gas milage!

already do that on my bike

 

[obijuan]

i just think its badass to never go to a gasoline station again. i also hate the smell of propane but could put up with it just to say i run on propane. ive seriously been considering it. also will this be in a truck or K5? if a K5 where would you put the tank?

 

[K5dreamer]

HHO is an interesting concept, the principle is that the HHO gas has a faster flame front propogation (about 10x faster than the fuel) so the flame spreads faster, igniting more fuel in less time, and producing higher peak cylender pressure and more complete burn, increasing efficiency.

i hope to do some testing of that idea this summer along with my biodiesel testing. as of today, i have yet to see any hard evidence that the system actually works, although the theory is sound.

in regard to gas vs diesel, i vote diesel all the way, ill probly never buy a gas powered car again. and im a huge advocate of biodiesel, although its certainly not an exact science yet. If you think you can handle brewing yourself, its a way around the $4 diesel cost, (hit me in the jimmy too), but if you feel its too much work, and annoyance, i guess propane would be the best choice for you.

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Check out electrolysis of water. it's the theory behind hydrogen powered cars. my roommate built a setup that uses electricity to break down water into H H O, and feeds that to the engine. he "reportedly" made his 96 f*rd exploder get 35mpg on a test run. it can be adapted to work on any engine. it also made his V6 feel like a V8. if anyone asks why we havent had this for a long time, it's something about a government conspiracy I'm going to be putting one on my Yukon in the next few weeks before I head home for spring break, to test the theory.

I voted propane because it already gets better economy then gas and burns cleaner, plus with an electrolysis setup, will burn very little. but diesel will get very good economy as well.

my $0.02

Where is the electricity to split the water coming from? If its all integral on the truck (i.e. the alternator is providing the electricity) than that's a fockin' joke.

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Propane is a sweet setup, its probably what I will do. You don't need to mess with compression if you don't want to, it will give you better efficiency.

If you swap to a diesel you can look into WVO or producing your own biodiesel to keep the cost of fuel low.

 

[Citizen Rider]

I voted propane because it already gets better economy then gas and burns cleaner, plus with an electrolysis setup, will burn very little. but diesel will get very good economy as well.

my $0.02

Back when i researched propane, the economy was 1%(IIRR) more than gasoline. It was very minimal difference in price and mileage.

 

[tRustyK5]

propane because it already gets better economy then gas

Propane gets worse economy than gasoline, and usually by 10%-20% worse. There is less energy in propane per volume than gasoline. Power also drops by a similar amount.

In the early to mid 80's in Canada there was a huge government backed and subsidized push to convert to propane power. I have driven dozens of cars and trucks that are on propane, and not one of them made more power or got better economy than the gas powered versions.

Propane was really popular here for quite a while, because it was 1/5th the price of gas. It was easy to live with less power and worse fuel economy. Then the subsidy went away and propane started being sold at market value. Instantly it went from 1/5th the price to about 70% the cost of gas. I don't see hardly any propane vehicles here anymore...maybe 10% of what there used to be. It just isn't worth it. By the time you factor in the worse economy it pretty much 6's for cost. Propane has the disadvantage os fuel storage (big bulky round tanks) and lack of infrastructure now.

For trail only I'd consider it though...much better than a carb.

Rene

 

[K5dreamer]

Where is the electricity to split the water coming from? If its all integral on the truck (i.e. the alternator is providing the electricity) than that's a fockin' joke.

not necessarily. i plan on doing some small scale testing on small engines first, and depending on the results, ill be stepping it up and testing it on full scale engines. there has been alot of debate about creating vs changing energy, and wheather the energy it takes to produce the hydrogen and oxygen would be greater than, equil to, or less than, the energy released in the combustion event. technically the energy needed to produce the hydrogen and oxygen would be equal to the energy released durring combustion of that hydrogen and oxygen, simple entropy.

however, if the combustion of that hydrogen, causes hydrocarbon fuel to combust that otherwise would have been put off as pollutants, you would have a positive energy release. also, if the nature of the combustion is changed, burning more fuel at a point of higher compression with greater mechanical advantage on the crankshaft, youll make better use of the energy release which would equate to positive energy release, although it would better be stated as increased efficiency.

anyway, thats a theoretical view of what MIGHT be happening when producing and burning HHO. i plan to test it this summer and see if it pans out. although i will admit i am very skeptical. the theory seems very sound though.

 

[GsxrMike]

It sounds like a great theory! We did some stuff with seperating H and O in high school once. The only thing I would wonder is since the H H O combo would burn 10x faster with higher compression, wouldn't that f up the timing to the point of it not being worth it? Or would it help burn the air/gas mixture fast enough you could run like 2* - 4* of timing. I would hate to see what would happen to an engine if you had detonation with added H and O.

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

not necessarily. i plan on doing some small scale testing on small engines first, and depending on the results, ill be stepping it up and testing it on full scale engines. there has been alot of debate about creating vs changing energy, and wheather the energy it takes to produce the hydrogen and oxygen would be greater than, equil to, or less than, the energy released in the combustion event. technically the energy needed to produce the hydrogen and oxygen would be equal to the energy released durring combustion of that hydrogen and oxygen, simple entropy.

As you said above, theoretically separating the hydrogen and oxygen and then reburning it would result in no energy gain or loss at 100% efficiency.

The motor is probably working at 35% efficiency and the alternator is nowhere near 100% efficient either. That means that seperating hydrogen to burn is costing you A LOT of energy.

however, if the combustion of that hydrogen, causes hydrocarbon fuel to combust that otherwise would have been put off as pollutants, you would have a positive energy release. also, if the nature of the combustion is changed, burning more fuel at a point of higher compression with greater mechanical advantage on the crankshaft, youll make better use of the energy release which would equate to positive energy release, although it would better be stated as increased efficiency.

That's pretty much the claim that almost every miracle mpg cure uses. "The fuel doesn't burn completely on its own, use these magnets and your mpg will double".

The fact is that conventional internal combustion engines aren't very efficient because their rotating assembly changes direction thousands of times per minute all the while pumping heat out of the radiator and brakes.

The fuel entering the combustion chamber is very thoroughly burned in any motor that is tuned correctly.

Even if the hydrogen makes the fuel burn a little better it won't come anywhere near overcoming the amount of energy it consumed to separate the hydrogen.

 

[K5dreamer]

38377k5 - very valid points. and the reason i remain skeptical before i conduct testing. but i really havent seen any valid data one way or the other. either to support or disprove the theory of the HHO effects.

also, i wouldnt think that running your headlights would effect gas mileage, at least not enough to notice. a small HHO generator pulling roughly the same draw as all the lights on the truck, only a few amps, wouldnt add signifigant draw to the alternator, and thus wouldnt add much resistance to the engine, but would still have the fast flame front propogation of the HHO gas in the chamber.

You certainly couldnt produce enough gas from the alternator to power the engine on strait HHO.

GsxrMike - from what i understand you do modify the timing a little bit. but while the HC fuel is ignited faster its burn rate is still the same, so the timing isnt effected that drastically.

 

[noJeepshere]

Propane gets worse economy than gasoline, and usually by 10%-20% worse. There is less energy in propane per volume than gasoline. Power also drops by a similar amount.

Rene

I remember that my dad put a huge 100 gallon propane tank on our old 81 suburban back in the 80s and we would drive from texas to utah without stopping, although he still had the gas tank on there too.

Where is the electricity to split the water coming from? If its all integral on the truck (i.e. the alternator is providing the electricity) than that's a fockin' joke.

yeah, its powered by the alternator, uses ~10-15 amps depending on the temperature of the water. thats little more then the rear window defroster.

That's pretty much the claim that almost every miracle mpg cure uses. "The fuel doesn't burn completely on its own, use these magnets and your mpg will double".

my brother, the dupe that he can be, put one of those on the yukon before i bought it. what a joke.

also, i wouldnt think that running your headlights would effect gas mileage, at least not enough to notice. a small HHO generator pulling roughly the same draw as all the lights on the truck, only a few amps, wouldnt add signifigant draw to the alternator, and thus wouldnt add much resistance to the engine, but would still have the fast flame front propogation of the HHO gas in the chamber.

hydrogen is one of the most combustible gasses on the planet (the hindenburg comes to mind) so it would act as a catalyst for the gas, making it burn faster and more completely. propane injection makes buckoes of power for diesels and better fuel economy (if i understand correctly) and makes the engine run cleaner. imo, H H O is the same for gas, theorectically. time will tell, i will be putting one on my yukon next weekend to find out. i will keep yall posted.

You certainly couldnt produce enough gas from the alternator to power the engine on strait HHO.

http://www.cleanwaterfuel.com/videos.asp

check the video of the 95 f*rd running on water. this is the same theory behind BMWs hydrogen car, just a lot more rudimentary.

 

[K5dreamer]

nojeepshere - perhaps i spoke too soon..........

although the demonstrations are very convincing, they do lack hard data in numbers on paper form. I would like to see testing of effects on gas mileage, power, emissions, related to the size of the gas producing unit, both in physical size and gas production in cfm. as well as the amperage draw, and load on the alternator. all those demonstrations were of cars running off the battery.

again, its all very convincing, and believe me, im a tree hugging hippy at heart, and i want to believe this, which is why ill be doing testing myself, i just dont have time right now with school. so im waiting till summer.

with diesel hitting $4 a gallon the other day, im very motivated to start running bio fuels. and i cant think of a much greener setup than a HHO boosted biodiesel..... 30mpg or more out of a 5200lbs truck on 33's with no overdrive...... those are bragging rights id enjoy

 

[Stomis]

I still dont get why we're not all running hydrogen if its been around for so long. The one thing I dont see listed on that site is what it takes to setup and by the system though.

 

[lak2004]

If I go diesel I would definately look into making my own biodiesel. I just dont have the tools or a place to do an engine swap unfortunately. If I could get it done for a decent price I would definately be more inclined to do the diesel swap. After all this is my DD, even though I walk most places or ride a bike here in Durango.

I am just torn between what to do. I am starting to meet a lot of gear heads now that I am working at autozone which could work to my advantage for people helping me out. Just met a guy w/a 72 that he swapped a tbi 454 into that is pretty bad ass.

If I still lived in Denver the swap would have already been done and I would have 1 tons in it, but since I dont it is harder to find deals and get parts here.

 

[noJeepshere]

I still dont get why we're not all running hydrogen if its been around for so long. The one thing I dont see listed on that site is what it takes to setup and by the system though.

(read: big oil has us by the genitals)

I found some plans online on how to do it, but that system is pretty complex. I'll do a simple drawing of it this afternoon to show yall how simple it can be.



sorry to hijack your thread like this lak2004, i only intended to make a suggestion. im all for diesel, only the price keeps me back, and the maintenance to keep em going.

 

[K5dreamer]

yeah i live in an apartment, space is a premium, so ill probly be buying a trailer to build the biodiesel processer on.

and i finally decided to build an HHO generator today to experiment with. ive got a small two stroke engine that i salvaged from the side of the road, didnt have a carb to begin with, so im thinking about seeing if i can get it running with HHO

just for fun.