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Propane vs TBI

RootBreaker

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Ok guys.. long time no chat. Truck has sat for a long time.. just got a hornets nest off of passenger floor board.. MAN WAS IT HUGE!!!!


Fuel pump is all gummed up.. truck don't run...

So in March I get a bonus.. I'm tired of this can't pass emissions deal which is why I don't drive it... plus no wheeling buds... but that is a different story..

Anyway...
I went from truck avenger that ran like a bat out of hell to a q-jet and still can't pass emissions...

So last thought is one of 3 things...

1. 2008 Silverado 6L upgrade
2. Tbi setup
3. Propane - http://www.gotpropane.com/p4.html
4. $300 - shop will detune for emissions - tune for performance after... good for 2yr inspection..

option 1.
So Silverado 6L will be fuel injected, computer controlled and cost about $1200 and lots of time to figure it out...

Option 2.
Can't find the site but I had email... $1000 and everything to get running including them custom programming.

Option 3.
I don't drive much so I don't mind buying a few tanks and running on propane... that would seem to deal with my emissions problem....


So now before anyone says buy a sticker.. your not married to my wife... and I don't want to hear it from her.. so truck was always.. legal then you drive it... so it has sat for 4yrs as I can't get past emissions....

So they are my 3 choices..

I am thinking propane will be the easiest.... thoughts?:dunno:
 
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If an LS swap is in the mix the tbi just seems pointless.

Propane is probably easiest. LS swap is probably the most beneficial.
 
Around here, 5.3's go for $500, but 6L go for $1500+.
New or modified harness $500-750
computer programming $2-300
New crossmember and adapter plates $100-400
headers $500-700
fuel system $300+

More that will cross my mind later.

I have close to $5K into my 6L swap, granted I ordered a brand new wiring harness and didn't cheap out on anything, but it's still difficult to cut that even in half.
 
Since no one has asked. What are the emissions standards in your state? Thats where I would start and thats the path that will lead you to the best option.
 
Since no one has asked. What are the emissions standards in your state? Thats where I would start and thats the path that will lead you to the best option.

sucky...

i forget which is raw unburnt fuel... but you are allowed 300... I am at 1580...

now I did fire the pig up last night.. got it running and going to put fuel in it soon as it has crud in it. going to run the tank out... (tank is clean as last time i dropped tank and took all chunks out...

I started fiddling with the truck.. timing seemed way off.. set that... set idle..
air/fuel screws were bout 4-4/12 turns out.. remember I screwed with this so many times and dont know what im doing...

im now running 1 turn out... that is it... seems better.. but there is a flatspot...

so i forgot an option...

4. $300 - shop will detune for emissions - tune for performance after... good for 2yr inspection..
 
Well you haven't touched the truck in 4 years so how much do you really think you'll use it if its street legal? If this is going to be a mostly trail truck then propane isn't a bad way to go, but $300 for the tuning doesn't sound too bad. As for the LS swap, double that figure and you'll be close.
 
Just throwing it out there, but does NJ have an exemption for propane? It varies state to state whether a conversion is allowed.

If you've got the money, go for LS. As has been previously stated, it's not a direct drop-in so be prepared for the nickel-and-dime stuff to add up. But an LS doesn't really pay off unless you plan on using the truck a lot. There's a lot of time and effort in a conversion if the truck sits for most of the time.
 
Just throwing it out there, but does NJ have an exemption for propane? It varies state to state whether a conversion is allowed.

If you've got the money, go for LS. As has been previously stated, it's not a direct drop-in so be prepared for the nickel-and-dime stuff to add up. But an LS doesn't really pay off unless you plan on using the truck a lot. There's a lot of time and effort in a conversion if the truck sits for most of the time.

I need to call NJ inspection to find out...

truck doesnt get used AT ALL now.. and when it is back driving... wont get used for what it is at all... so to spend a good amount to an LS swap doesnt make sense...


however the propane or pay shop is the best way.. gonna lean to shop for the cheap on the road fix... then down the line (march/april - bonus time) then do propane... that will get it all going...

plus I will be looking for a crew cab (12000lb gvrw to get around the NJ lift laws) but that opens a new can of worms.... self inspect and what is required...


Just move out of NJ.

yeah and move where.. so many places are so much better but in the end.. they all screw you over..

want to know a way around this... Diesel .... OR... newer truck. we got newer trucks rollin on ghetto fab tractor trailer tires.. stupidest thing I ever saw...
tractor tires are essentially 44's... so why can they run 44's but im limited to 38s... well my friend.. self inspect (subject to DOT inspections)...
 
If you were to do an ls swap wouldn't you have to pass the emissions for the vehicle the engine came from? If so that makes that option even more difficult.

I'm all for a propane swap. My scout runs on propane and I drive it all the time. Drove it to work yesterday. I keep 6-8 forklift tanks laying around and swap them out as needed, always make sure I have at least one full in the scout before I go anywhere and I really don't ever drive it all that far.

For something that won't get driven a lot I'd definitely go for propane. Simple, cheap, doesn't gum up lines or carb/injectors from sitting, doesn't go bad from sitting, no fuel pump to worry about, here it's usually cheaper than gas and mine starts and runs better than any carbed engine I've ever had.

The biggest issue I run into (and keep any eye out for regularly) is leaks. Propane leaks are harder to detect than fuel leaks, no puddle underneath and to me not as easy to smell as you might think. Really sucks to run out of fuel when you think you have a full tank.
 
I just talked to Ox (remember him on NJ4W?) about this. He has propane on his crawler. He's going back to gas on the new one he's building. That should say a lot.
1) propane is very expensive here compared to gas.
2) you have to wrestle a 100 lb forklift tank on and off the truck every time you want to fill it up because most places won't refill while it's on/ near a vehicle.
3) it works bad when it's cold, at least until the truck warms up, because it needs heat from the antifreeze to evaporate the propane from gas to vapor before the carb.
4) propane makes less power than gas (less heat content) in a given engine. It is a higher octane so you could run an 11:1 compression if you want to rebuild.
5) a TBI system is just as cheap, if not cheaper. You can get used computers and harness for a couple hundred bucks. Or get one of the new systems out there.
6) you're very limited on where you can refill a propane tank.
 
You don't have to meet the sourced vehicles emissions in NJ. There's no visual so they would have no idea it had a newer motor. 96 and down is tail pipe sniffer and done, pass or don't pass.


I still don't understand why you just don't buy a sticker. Despite everything being a pain in the ass we're right behind new York with utter corruption. Plenty of shops will sell you a legit sticker for $100
 
I've been running propane on my Blazer for the last 7 years or so, here's my take:

1) propane is very expensive here compared to gas.

It varies, just like any fuel. When I converted, it was about 2/3's the cost of gas. It is a bit more than gas now.

2) you have to wrestle a 100 lb forklift tank on and off the truck every time you want to fill it up because most places won't refill while it's on/ near a vehicle.

Yep, taking the tanks in/out sucks. They're less than 100# but still not fun. And in a lot of places they aren't legal inside an enclosed cab.

3) it works bad when it's cold, at least until the truck warms up, because it needs heat from the antifreeze to evaporate the propane from gas to vapor before the carb.

This one is not right at all.

Propane boils at -44*F, gasoline boils at more than 100*F (actually as high as 400*F, the actual number varies depending on what is actually in the gasoline).

The reason that gasoline engines have trouble starting in cold weather is because the fuel can only burn as a vapor. When cold, the engine was pumping air and liquid fuel and those don't burn. The 1st solution was to "choke" the engine and run tons of extra fuel, that way enough of the liquid fuel vaporized to get the engine started.

Even below the boiling point, some of the liquid will boil; just like if you leave a pot of water out for a week it will eventually disappear even if the temperature was never over 212*F. Same thing with steam over a hot tub, lots of water "boiling" (vaporizing) without the whole amount of water making it to boiling temp.

Propane doesn't have this problem at all, because it boils at such a low temperature, it's basically a vapor at any temperature we would use them at. The reason that coolant lines are run to the vaporizers are to keep them from freezing up; as the liquid propane converts to vapor it takes heat with it (just like pretty much anything does).

If there isn't warm coolant running to the vaporizer, under high fuel requirements they would get too cold and stop delivering vaporized fuel and it would stay liquid. No bueno, basically you can't expect full HP out of a propane engine until the coolant is up to temp. But you really should let pretty much any engine get up to temp before full throttle anyway.

4) propane makes less power than gas (less heat content) in a given engine. It is a higher octane so you could run an 11:1 compression if you want to rebuild.

100% true on paper. But Cary @ GotPropane makes a good point that many don't lose power because the carburetors they're replacing weren't tuned right and the new propane system, which pretty much runs perfect out of the box (vapor fuel is magical that way, liquid fuel is the reason carburetors are so finincky). I didn't notice any loss of power going from gas to propane.

5) a TBI system is just as cheap, if not cheaper. You can get used computers and harness for a couple hundred bucks. Or get one of the new systems out there.

Agree 100%. Propane isn't the answer for everyone. Honestly, the only reason I did it is because I thought my cam was too big for TBI and the fuel injection systems then were $$$ (gen 3 stuff was brand new then). And I got a smoking deal on a new system in the "for sale" section here.


6) you're very limited on where you can refill a propane tank.

This is my #1 overall complaint with propane. Filling the tanks sucks. You have to take them out yourself (not so bad) but you also have to find a place that has propane (about 1/5 of gas stations, in my experience) AND hit them up at a time that someone "certified" is available to fill them.

You can't fill the tanks yourself.

The most frustrating experience for me was at Blazer Bash a few years ago, our campsite had a propane fill station (very common at KOA type places because RV's use a lot of propane). I stopped in after our trail ride one day at 4PM or so assuming someone should be there to fill my tanks (already knowing that filling propane can be troublesome). Nope, the only employee they have certified to fill tanks took the week off.


After all of that, I very recently had a chance to bail on propane and I didn't. My 383 finally let go at the beginning of June and I decided to replace it with a 6.0L (I decided that building a Gen I small block that would take the boost I'm running would be a lot more $$ than a stock Gen III that would take it stock).

The Gen III fuel injection system is excellent, but I would've needed a fuel cell, fuel pump, new fuel system etc. and that's a bunch of extra cost. And, with a turbo, would've required a full day on the dyno (again, propane is magic there, as a vapor fuel you can make the air/fuel work right with pretty much no adjustments).

Long story short for propane:

Pros:

#1 It's ridiculously simple. Like, makes carbureted engines look complex. No fuel pump, no jets to mess with, runs at any angle. One wire to run it (or none if you use a vacuum lockoff). It straight works and it works really well. I've been on the trail with a bunch of fuel injected vehicles that wouldn't run with a bad fuel pump, MAF, IAC etc and felt pretty good knowing that I don't even need those parts.

Don't get me wrong, everything can break and go wrong, but even if the lockoff goes bad (the part that says start/stop in a propane system), you can bypass it and let the engine start/stop with the valve on the tank like a barbeque grill.

High octane fuel, 97-110 (quality seems to vary but even 97 is pretty good). Part of the reason I kept it and part of the reason mine is boosted now.

Cons:

Refilling tanks SUCKS. Physical labor aside, it's a pain to find a place to fill them. And it takes a lot longer, because you can't fill them yourself. And you need to think ahead, you're not going to get propane at midnight anywhere.


I stuck with propane because of simplicity and because it likes boost. And mine's a trailer queen that only goes through a couple dozen tanks of fuel a year. But it's not for everyone.
 
I was going to buy a propane powered Ford F350 service truck one time, for me it made great since because I already have a 3,000 gallon bulk tank here at home with a fill station and I get it for around $2/gallon. I would run a propane engine over a carbed gas engine any day. My propane forklift runs great.

The other thing not mentioned is how long plugs and oil lasts with propane, it burns so clean that your engine oil will stay clean so long that your oil will need to be changed simply from age and duty cycles rather than contaminates.
 
Good points all.. im still bankin gettin $300 deal to get a sticker and see how they tune it... then lookin to still go propane...not gonna drive much so dont care if fuel costs more...

Rv shop 1m away so can get filled... no biggie.. more to come..

2w ill get it registered as it ran out. Then will goto shop...will check in then
 

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