super10brss
1/2 ton status
Any one here have a PTO Winch? can you buy them new today and how do they work? 
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.
PTO Winch?
- Thread starter super10brss
- Start date
Well, instead of having an electric or hydraulic motor, the Power is Taken Off the engine, usually the transfercase or transmission.
Generally they'll be HUGE, i.e. 20K, 30K, 50K pounds, as used on tow trucks or industrial equipment, so they'll be impractical for recreational use on a normal-sized truck.
They'd also require your motor to be running (but then so do the hydraulics, and for long runs, the electrical.)
Mounting one is hairy, 'cuz you have to get a driveshaft from the middle of the truck to wherever you put the winch ... in the towtrucks, they're usualy mounted amidships for this reason. On the big trucks, like the deuce and a halfs, there's enough room to squeeze the PTO shaft up to the front bumper.
That said, if you go that route, post pix!
-- A
Generally they'll be HUGE, i.e. 20K, 30K, 50K pounds, as used on tow trucks or industrial equipment, so they'll be impractical for recreational use on a normal-sized truck.
They'd also require your motor to be running (but then so do the hydraulics, and for long runs, the electrical.)
Mounting one is hairy, 'cuz you have to get a driveshaft from the middle of the truck to wherever you put the winch ... in the towtrucks, they're usualy mounted amidships for this reason. On the big trucks, like the deuce and a halfs, there's enough room to squeeze the PTO shaft up to the front bumper.
That said, if you go that route, post pix!
-- A
MUDmaniac3
Registered Member
i actually purchased a ramsey pto winch last year and it works great well it worked when i pulled it off my huntin partners suburban. As soon as i get the motor put together in my blazer i will be going to finish the brakets and mount it up so i'll post some pics when i'm done
dfl701
1/2 ton status
How do you plan on mounting it?
I had a PTO winch on my moose buggy, a 10k Ramsey. I ran a 350, TH400 and a 205 t-case. I've still got the winch and the drive line for it and I don't know if I'll use it again or not. There are pros and cons for the PTO, if you intend to use it solely for self recovery I'd recommend against one. If you intend to use it for recovering others and any kind of work that you might come up with then go for it.
The specific reason for my comments is the way the PTO works. With an electric winch you can put a load on the winch and then start trying to drive forward without spinning the tires or possibly just a small amount of tire spin. With the PTO you have 2 options, either let the winch do all the work (t-case in neutral) or use the winch and the tires (t-case in gear) in which case the tires will spin faster than the winch winds in, making huge ruts.
The winch itself is great, it had a 350 cu. in. water cooled winch motor. You could run the winch all day long without worrying about the motor overheating. Though it was rated at 10,000 lbs. I feel fairly certain that it would pull twice that if I had cable rated for that much. With the 400 I had 3 speeds in and 1 out. You had to use care around the winch though, when the 400 is left in neutral first clutch is engaged and there is enough drag through the cluthces in forward clutch that the PTO will still turn and if the winch is engaged the cable will continue to wind in until there is enough resistance to overcome the friction that is driving the PTO. There are no solenoids to burn up, you really don't need to have a battery dedicated for the winch and the worm gear drive works good as a brake.
Gus
The specific reason for my comments is the way the PTO works. With an electric winch you can put a load on the winch and then start trying to drive forward without spinning the tires or possibly just a small amount of tire spin. With the PTO you have 2 options, either let the winch do all the work (t-case in neutral) or use the winch and the tires (t-case in gear) in which case the tires will spin faster than the winch winds in, making huge ruts.
The winch itself is great, it had a 350 cu. in. water cooled winch motor. You could run the winch all day long without worrying about the motor overheating. Though it was rated at 10,000 lbs. I feel fairly certain that it would pull twice that if I had cable rated for that much. With the 400 I had 3 speeds in and 1 out. You had to use care around the winch though, when the 400 is left in neutral first clutch is engaged and there is enough drag through the cluthces in forward clutch that the PTO will still turn and if the winch is engaged the cable will continue to wind in until there is enough resistance to overcome the friction that is driving the PTO. There are no solenoids to burn up, you really don't need to have a battery dedicated for the winch and the worm gear drive works good as a brake.
Gus
pennsylvaniaboy
1/2 ton status
what i have seen alot of guys do here is mount an electric up front and a pto in the back.
BILTIT
1/2 ton status
PTO's are powerful! I have an 8K for my truck, i have not mounted it yet but my old chevy had one and it would pull all day long.
Like said above, it is not the best option for self-recovery but excellant for recovering others.
PTO's will generally pull twice what they are rated for which can be alittle dangerous. The main problem with PTO's is that you have a V8 providing the power so it is hard to stall or even easily tell how much load is on the winch.
If you already have an electric then an additional PTO for the heavy work is a good idea. I would not run just a PTO unless it was already on the truck.
Mounting is not bad if you find a bumper that had one. It is easiest to find a whole truck with the setup than to try and piece it together.
I have some pics of mine somewhere, i will see if i can find them.
I run a 10K in the rear and will be putting the 8K PTO in front.
Like said above, it is not the best option for self-recovery but excellant for recovering others.
PTO's will generally pull twice what they are rated for which can be alittle dangerous. The main problem with PTO's is that you have a V8 providing the power so it is hard to stall or even easily tell how much load is on the winch.
If you already have an electric then an additional PTO for the heavy work is a good idea. I would not run just a PTO unless it was already on the truck.
Mounting is not bad if you find a bumper that had one. It is easiest to find a whole truck with the setup than to try and piece it together.
I have some pics of mine somewhere, i will see if i can find them.
I run a 10K in the rear and will be putting the 8K PTO in front.
MUDmaniac3
Registered Member
i already made the brackets for the front well most of them. i'm just gonna bolt it between the frame rails and it doesn't look like it will be to hard to get the driveline to the back because the driveshaft for the winch is offset to one side so it should be fairly easy but i'll know more when i go to finish it up. oh and i got a electric winch i'm mountin up in the rear so guess i'm doing the opposite of what most everyone else does but i figure if my truck dies going into some mud hole it will probably be easier to back instead of trying to force it forward
BILTIT
1/2 ton status
My thoughts exactly on the winch configurations.
The driveshaft to the front is not a big deal, fits well but you do need a pillow block mounted on the frame and some u-joints. I have heard of issues with headers interfering with the shaft though.
The driveshaft to the front is not a big deal, fits well but you do need a pillow block mounted on the frame and some u-joints. I have heard of issues with headers interfering with the shaft though.
Oh Lord, PTO winches. I could go on all day.......
I have had a PTO winch on every off road vehicle I ever owned. Despite the fact that I was in with a guy who custom built incredibly strong electric winches.
Neither the electric nor the PTO system is perfect.
If you drive off into a really deep hole and drown your engine, an electric will usually pull you out far enough to restart the engine. PTO would not have.
Driving off into a long bog or marsh may cause your electric to run out of juice before you get out unless you have a 400 amp alternator. Or driving up on 5 trucks stuck in one bog trying to pull each other out leaves the guy with the electric stuck hooked to the last truck with a dead battery and calling for the guy with the PTO (me). He pulled out 4 before it went dead.
If you want to go PTO, you will need a source of power.
NP205s have PTO openings, so do most 4 speed trannys. Others you will have to check.
My present truck has a 12,000lb PTO rated to 24,000lb. It will break a 3/8 steel core cable on the next to outside wrap without much strain. On the first (inside) wrap, it does not even notice.
My truck before this one had a direct drive PTO winch using a 1 inch steel shaft with pillow bearings and u-joints from a PTO unit on an NP205 to the front.
I often used it with the wheels turning.
If you are seriously stuck, mud so deep the doors won't open, you WANT the wheels to turn as you winch. First gear low range is about the right speed.
Remember, this winch PULLS.
With your wheels sunk that deep, it is awfully easy to leave part of your undercarriage behind when pulling yourself out. With the wheels turning, they will dig themselves along and climb over a stump or log if they hit it.
My present truck caused a problem when I went to mount the shaft. There just was no way to do it with the exhaust system the way it was. No room.
I mounted the PTO unit on the transfer case, bolted a large hydraulic pump to it, mounted a tank under the tool box, added a two way valve and a hydraulic motor on the winch.
Hoses are easier to route than steel shafts.
I can run the winch forward or back with the valve, or put it in neutral. This does cause one problem.
With my old truck, when pulling someone out. when they got loose, I could engage the transfer case, and put the transmission in reverse. Then back up pulling the guy the rest of the way out.
The winch would turn backwards as I did, but not fast enough to make much difference.
With my hydraulic system, I must stop and disengage the PTO before I back up, because it would blow the seals out of the pump to spin it backward.
There is an outfit that sells hydraulic pump kits that mount to the engine and use an oversized air conditioner clutch to engage it.
I am considering switching to that setup to make it easier to back up without spinning the pump backwards.
I'm using a Braden winch on my present truck. Model AHGU2-10F
Paccar has bought out Braden, here is their page.
http://www.paccarwinch.com/braden/products/recovery.aspx
I ordered mine from Sam Wyner Motors. I guess they are still in business, I see they have a web page. http://www.samwinermotors.com/
Weight is a factor, but not all that much these days.
When I was little, my father and his friend mounted a PTO winch on a two wheel drive chevy.
About a '60 model I think.
Problem was, the truck went along scraping the center of the road when hitting bumps on a dirt road.
They did not make many lift kits or heavy duty springs back then.
They took the winch off, and mounted it in the bed right behind the cab. Ran the cable down through the bed and through pulleys out the front bumper with a roller fairlead on the front. Worked surprisingly well.
I would not recommend that today though. Just add springs.
I ordered my truck with the snowplow package and the weight was dead on. What the folks thought of a guy in Florida ordering a snowplow option I have no idea.
When it comes to using one, someone here posted a good primer on general winch safety use.
If you want some stories about winch maybe not so safe use, let me know.
BTW, as I was setting up my latest winch, I wanted to mount an electronic strain gage between the winch and the mount so I could monitor the amount of pull it was delivering so as to prevent damage to cables or suspension, but I didn't get around to it.
They make some that are built into bolts and other types that are fairly easy to hook up, but I just didn't.
I may do that one of these days.
J.
I have had a PTO winch on every off road vehicle I ever owned. Despite the fact that I was in with a guy who custom built incredibly strong electric winches.
Neither the electric nor the PTO system is perfect.
If you drive off into a really deep hole and drown your engine, an electric will usually pull you out far enough to restart the engine. PTO would not have.
Driving off into a long bog or marsh may cause your electric to run out of juice before you get out unless you have a 400 amp alternator. Or driving up on 5 trucks stuck in one bog trying to pull each other out leaves the guy with the electric stuck hooked to the last truck with a dead battery and calling for the guy with the PTO (me). He pulled out 4 before it went dead.
If you want to go PTO, you will need a source of power.
NP205s have PTO openings, so do most 4 speed trannys. Others you will have to check.
My present truck has a 12,000lb PTO rated to 24,000lb. It will break a 3/8 steel core cable on the next to outside wrap without much strain. On the first (inside) wrap, it does not even notice.
My truck before this one had a direct drive PTO winch using a 1 inch steel shaft with pillow bearings and u-joints from a PTO unit on an NP205 to the front.
I often used it with the wheels turning.
If you are seriously stuck, mud so deep the doors won't open, you WANT the wheels to turn as you winch. First gear low range is about the right speed.
Remember, this winch PULLS.
With your wheels sunk that deep, it is awfully easy to leave part of your undercarriage behind when pulling yourself out. With the wheels turning, they will dig themselves along and climb over a stump or log if they hit it.
My present truck caused a problem when I went to mount the shaft. There just was no way to do it with the exhaust system the way it was. No room.
I mounted the PTO unit on the transfer case, bolted a large hydraulic pump to it, mounted a tank under the tool box, added a two way valve and a hydraulic motor on the winch.
Hoses are easier to route than steel shafts.
I can run the winch forward or back with the valve, or put it in neutral. This does cause one problem.
With my old truck, when pulling someone out. when they got loose, I could engage the transfer case, and put the transmission in reverse. Then back up pulling the guy the rest of the way out.
The winch would turn backwards as I did, but not fast enough to make much difference.
With my hydraulic system, I must stop and disengage the PTO before I back up, because it would blow the seals out of the pump to spin it backward.
There is an outfit that sells hydraulic pump kits that mount to the engine and use an oversized air conditioner clutch to engage it.
I am considering switching to that setup to make it easier to back up without spinning the pump backwards.
I'm using a Braden winch on my present truck. Model AHGU2-10F
Paccar has bought out Braden, here is their page.
http://www.paccarwinch.com/braden/products/recovery.aspx
I ordered mine from Sam Wyner Motors. I guess they are still in business, I see they have a web page. http://www.samwinermotors.com/
Weight is a factor, but not all that much these days.
When I was little, my father and his friend mounted a PTO winch on a two wheel drive chevy.
About a '60 model I think.
Problem was, the truck went along scraping the center of the road when hitting bumps on a dirt road.
They did not make many lift kits or heavy duty springs back then.
They took the winch off, and mounted it in the bed right behind the cab. Ran the cable down through the bed and through pulleys out the front bumper with a roller fairlead on the front. Worked surprisingly well.
I would not recommend that today though. Just add springs.
I ordered my truck with the snowplow package and the weight was dead on. What the folks thought of a guy in Florida ordering a snowplow option I have no idea.
When it comes to using one, someone here posted a good primer on general winch safety use.
If you want some stories about winch maybe not so safe use, let me know.
BTW, as I was setting up my latest winch, I wanted to mount an electronic strain gage between the winch and the mount so I could monitor the amount of pull it was delivering so as to prevent damage to cables or suspension, but I didn't get around to it.
They make some that are built into bolts and other types that are fairly easy to hook up, but I just didn't.
I may do that one of these days.
J.
blazin_blazer
1/2 ton status
I've seen some PTO winches that it was impossible to get a drive shaft to, so they ran the shaft the best they could & used pillar block bearings on the shaft & put a sprocket on the shaft and the input of the winch and used a chain drive between the PTO shaft and winch input,
I love PTO winches, I recently got a 10 ton Mead Morrison PTO winch off of a burnt cotton module truck, & its 1 big a$$ winch it pulled those huge cotton modules up onto the truck, I'd actually like to find some1 who actually needs such a big winch and sell it and get 2 normal sized PTO winches, 1 front and back, but I've been toying w/ idea of putting it in the bed of the 87 r20 srw cc i just got, it will be converted to 4x4 eventually and I think it would be good for recovering others.
if can't find any1 to buy it or trade, I may take the 7/8 cable off of it and replace it w/ a long stretch of 1/2 inch cable, and also make a boom i can put on & off or at least lay it flat in the bed and be raised when needed and use some conveyor belt slings to fit into the rear receiver hitch and use it as a wrecker to drag home those old trucks i find that people want gone from their yards ASAP.
I like the idea about the hydraulic drive as was mentioned, as i have @ 4 small h.o. hydraulic pumps just laying around....on that note, I'm running a 465/205...can i use a PTO takeoff from the 465 to the front & a PTO takeoff from the 205 to the rear, or would i be better off w/1 PTO takeoff to 1 hydraulic pump and have it plumbed to both winches and use valves to control which winch it controls?
maybe even have it so i can run both winches at same time, in case my winch just drags my truck towards the stuck truck, i could put front winch on a tree and rear winch on stranded truck and let both winches pull to recover the stuck truck.....or it may pull my truck in two..lol, glad its pretty much rust free, and i've read all cc's were on 1ton frames, i've been told that doing something like that, w/an electric winch up front is a very easy way to strip the gears out..? guys say pulling w/ truck instead of pulling w/the electric winch strips the winch gears...?
any comments? i have tuff hyde? how would you do it to have rear recovery w/ a convertable winch boom also?
I love PTO winches, I recently got a 10 ton Mead Morrison PTO winch off of a burnt cotton module truck, & its 1 big a$$ winch it pulled those huge cotton modules up onto the truck, I'd actually like to find some1 who actually needs such a big winch and sell it and get 2 normal sized PTO winches, 1 front and back, but I've been toying w/ idea of putting it in the bed of the 87 r20 srw cc i just got, it will be converted to 4x4 eventually and I think it would be good for recovering others.
if can't find any1 to buy it or trade, I may take the 7/8 cable off of it and replace it w/ a long stretch of 1/2 inch cable, and also make a boom i can put on & off or at least lay it flat in the bed and be raised when needed and use some conveyor belt slings to fit into the rear receiver hitch and use it as a wrecker to drag home those old trucks i find that people want gone from their yards ASAP.
I like the idea about the hydraulic drive as was mentioned, as i have @ 4 small h.o. hydraulic pumps just laying around....on that note, I'm running a 465/205...can i use a PTO takeoff from the 465 to the front & a PTO takeoff from the 205 to the rear, or would i be better off w/1 PTO takeoff to 1 hydraulic pump and have it plumbed to both winches and use valves to control which winch it controls?
maybe even have it so i can run both winches at same time, in case my winch just drags my truck towards the stuck truck, i could put front winch on a tree and rear winch on stranded truck and let both winches pull to recover the stuck truck.....or it may pull my truck in two..lol, glad its pretty much rust free, and i've read all cc's were on 1ton frames, i've been told that doing something like that, w/an electric winch up front is a very easy way to strip the gears out..? guys say pulling w/ truck instead of pulling w/the electric winch strips the winch gears...?
any comments? i have tuff hyde? how would you do it to have rear recovery w/ a convertable winch boom also?
blazin_blazer
1/2 ton status
BILTIT
1/2 ton status
Some pics, i bought a 1 ton that had the whole assembly on it. Also one comparing to a 10K warn.
Ok, to answer a few questions: I cannot find the place that makes the belt driven pumps that I found before. I know I have it somewhere, and will keep looking. Meanwhile I found this outfit: http://www.deweze.com/deweze/OEM/OEM.html a little pricey but looks like good stuff.
Northern Tools also carries a belt driven pump, not sure if it is big enough.
Using a PS pump is probably not good. Mile Marker winches have a kit that taps into your existing pump to run their winch. A friend of mine has one and likes it. But it does not see the type of use mine sometimes does.
I ran the numbers using the rated flow rate and pressure of my stock pump against the motor needs of my winch, and it was way too little. But, I also have a big winch.
When I ordered my PTO unit and pump combination, I specified I wanted 1500 PSI@20GPM@1500RPM engine speed.
I got it, but it was way overkill.
Works nice though.
As far as using two PTO units, no way. If you go hydraulic, you already have what you need. Think air lines in a shop. One air compressor runs multiple tools all over the place.
Put in a good sized pump and tank, then plumb the lines where ever you need power.
A winch front and back is no problem with the right valves.
Plus you could add a lift body, tailgate, heck, automatic jacks if you wanted.
Have a flat? Turn on the PTO, hit the right valve, and a jack would swing down from the frame and lift that wheel up while you are in the cab.
A plug-in hydraulic impact wrench though would just be showing off.....
You could, however, have a pair of connectors at the back in case you needed remote power. Say to run a bush hog, or whatever.
As for hooking up front and back to pull someone out, I thought I had already posted that story here, but I guess not. I will post it here a little later.
J.
Northern Tools also carries a belt driven pump, not sure if it is big enough.
Using a PS pump is probably not good. Mile Marker winches have a kit that taps into your existing pump to run their winch. A friend of mine has one and likes it. But it does not see the type of use mine sometimes does.
I ran the numbers using the rated flow rate and pressure of my stock pump against the motor needs of my winch, and it was way too little. But, I also have a big winch.
When I ordered my PTO unit and pump combination, I specified I wanted 1500 PSI@20GPM@1500RPM engine speed.
I got it, but it was way overkill.
Works nice though.
As far as using two PTO units, no way. If you go hydraulic, you already have what you need. Think air lines in a shop. One air compressor runs multiple tools all over the place.
Put in a good sized pump and tank, then plumb the lines where ever you need power.
A winch front and back is no problem with the right valves.
Plus you could add a lift body, tailgate, heck, automatic jacks if you wanted.
Have a flat? Turn on the PTO, hit the right valve, and a jack would swing down from the frame and lift that wheel up while you are in the cab.
A plug-in hydraulic impact wrench though would just be showing off.....
You could, however, have a pair of connectors at the back in case you needed remote power. Say to run a bush hog, or whatever.
As for hooking up front and back to pull someone out, I thought I had already posted that story here, but I guess not. I will post it here a little later.
J.
I found my old post about hooking up a back support to pull someone out. Its a little long, but it shows what not to do......
<Back in my wilder days, I had a set of hooks on the front and back of the frame on both sides. If I had to hook to a tree or another truck with the back end trailer hitch, I would run a pair of log chains with binders from the front to the back of the frame to prevent stretching or breaking the frame. I had to help a friend weld his back together one time, so I took precautions.
Since my winch ran direct shaft drive off the transfer case PTO, it would pull until something broke. And since I sometimes used heavy cable, I was worried it might be me.
I did not bother with using the chains with normal stuff, 3/4 Ton trucks, small farm tractors, small flatbeds, etc. only for the big pulls.
Then, one day I learned another lesson about anchoring the back end. The hard way, of course. Is there any other way to learn?
A friend had backed a small dump truck off the road to turn it around and it started bogging down. He was smart enough to not sink it, and called me.
The other side of the road had a wide shallow ditch, about 2 feet deep max. Hard bottom. I backed up into the ditch and hooked a chain from a tree to my hitch. Started pulling. My truck tires came off the ground, and the truck promptly spun upside down.
You don't really know how much stuff you have in your truck until you are laying on the headliner with all of it piled up around you.
Of course, being a carb. truck, it promptly quit. Also being a worm drive winch with a brake, it locked when the power quit. I climbed out the window, and my friend and I were able to spin it right side up and wedge it that way with a tree limb. Then we opened the hood and washed off the battery acid. ( Optimas from now on )
Then we sat around laughing at each other's expression until enough of the oil had drained back down into the crankcase that we figured it was safe to crank. Smoked a bit, but ran ok.
Redid the back anchor so I was parked on a high point instead of a dip, and pulled him out.
I don't bother with the frame chains anymore, although I do use a back anchor from time to time. My new PTO winch is hydraulic running off the transfer case. I have the pressure bypass set so that it will almost break a 3/8 steel core cable with a full spool. Which means that it will break it with a wrap or so off the spool.
The frame should handle that. I don't fool with a snatch block. My winch will pull out anything I need to be trying to pull out single line.
If it breaks a 3/8 steel cable, I consider it out of my class and go looking for a skidder or a D6.
Guess I have mellowed. Used to be, I would go looking for a bigger cable.
J.
<Back in my wilder days, I had a set of hooks on the front and back of the frame on both sides. If I had to hook to a tree or another truck with the back end trailer hitch, I would run a pair of log chains with binders from the front to the back of the frame to prevent stretching or breaking the frame. I had to help a friend weld his back together one time, so I took precautions.
Since my winch ran direct shaft drive off the transfer case PTO, it would pull until something broke. And since I sometimes used heavy cable, I was worried it might be me.
I did not bother with using the chains with normal stuff, 3/4 Ton trucks, small farm tractors, small flatbeds, etc. only for the big pulls.
Then, one day I learned another lesson about anchoring the back end. The hard way, of course. Is there any other way to learn?
A friend had backed a small dump truck off the road to turn it around and it started bogging down. He was smart enough to not sink it, and called me.
The other side of the road had a wide shallow ditch, about 2 feet deep max. Hard bottom. I backed up into the ditch and hooked a chain from a tree to my hitch. Started pulling. My truck tires came off the ground, and the truck promptly spun upside down.
You don't really know how much stuff you have in your truck until you are laying on the headliner with all of it piled up around you.
Of course, being a carb. truck, it promptly quit. Also being a worm drive winch with a brake, it locked when the power quit. I climbed out the window, and my friend and I were able to spin it right side up and wedge it that way with a tree limb. Then we opened the hood and washed off the battery acid. ( Optimas from now on )
Then we sat around laughing at each other's expression until enough of the oil had drained back down into the crankcase that we figured it was safe to crank. Smoked a bit, but ran ok.
Redid the back anchor so I was parked on a high point instead of a dip, and pulled him out.
I don't bother with the frame chains anymore, although I do use a back anchor from time to time. My new PTO winch is hydraulic running off the transfer case. I have the pressure bypass set so that it will almost break a 3/8 steel core cable with a full spool. Which means that it will break it with a wrap or so off the spool.
The frame should handle that. I don't fool with a snatch block. My winch will pull out anything I need to be trying to pull out single line.
If it breaks a 3/8 steel cable, I consider it out of my class and go looking for a skidder or a D6.
Guess I have mellowed. Used to be, I would go looking for a bigger cable.
J.
blazin_blazer
1/2 ton status
that's crazy mang, a good story tho, i suppose that was an e-ticket ride! yea i guess i need to figure out which 1 of these pumps would best suit my needs, i have 2 used and 2 new 1's that i bought at a military surplus auction, i also need to find a PTO takeoff, any pros/cons as to pto coming of the 465 or the 205? i wonder how/if a good 12vdc motor could be used to turn the pump.
i had intended to put 2 reciever hitches up front, 1 on each frame rail and have some hydraulic quick connects and make a log splitter to slide into the 2 reciever hitches, have a ''saddle'' to put log in w/ butt plate and i have the outrigger rams of a backhoe to mount up w/splitter on it, i could use the other for the aforementioned dump bed, i hadn't thought about that, it would make unloading the split wood alot easier, you have my brain running wild w/possibilities...
yea a hydraulic impact seems a little to much, and it would need 2 hoses 1 for a return, but a hydraulic motor on an air compressor would be cool, also....so many things you could do, i deffinitly want a pto driven hydraulic pump now! but the pto takeoff seems to be a fish out of water down here, only 1 i've ever seen, was 1 that a friend had on his truck to a front pto winch, i remember he had trouble with breaking the spool shaft a few times. it was like 2-2 1/2'' solid metal and he was twiting it into,..thats some ummph! i think they were used more up north for peeps running plows and such.
i had intended to put 2 reciever hitches up front, 1 on each frame rail and have some hydraulic quick connects and make a log splitter to slide into the 2 reciever hitches, have a ''saddle'' to put log in w/ butt plate and i have the outrigger rams of a backhoe to mount up w/splitter on it, i could use the other for the aforementioned dump bed, i hadn't thought about that, it would make unloading the split wood alot easier, you have my brain running wild w/possibilities...
yea a hydraulic impact seems a little to much, and it would need 2 hoses 1 for a return, but a hydraulic motor on an air compressor would be cool, also....so many things you could do, i deffinitly want a pto driven hydraulic pump now! but the pto takeoff seems to be a fish out of water down here, only 1 i've ever seen, was 1 that a friend had on his truck to a front pto winch, i remember he had trouble with breaking the spool shaft a few times. it was like 2-2 1/2'' solid metal and he was twiting it into,..thats some ummph! i think they were used more up north for peeps running plows and such.
Well, I'm a little embarrassed to say it, but I'm not sure which is better. All my PTOs have run off the transfer case.
The problem with that is, that if you put the tranny in reverse, the PTO runs in reverse.
Not a problem if you are direct driving a winch, but a BIG problem with most hydraulic pumps.
Some types will only pump one way but not be damaged if spun backwards, some other types will pump either way, but the majority of them will be damaged or destroyed.
Something in the back of my mind tells me that if you run it off the 465, the PTO is independent of the gears and will turn the same way all the time.
If so, that is the way to go.
PTO units are really more common than it seems. They are just used more in larger equipment. Many wreckers have them. Some of the smaller ones use electric winches, but most are PTO.
Forget using an electric motor to run the pump. They don't have anywhere near the flow rate you need.
Also, a good rule of thumb, is that the minimum tank size is the max GPM of your pump.
My Pump is rated at 20GPM, and I have a 30 gallon tank. This lets me run the winch continuously. The extra oil and large tank lets the oil cool off. That way I don't have to run an oil cooler.
You do need a return line spin-on oil filter and a suction line screen to keep bad things out of the pump.
After that, you need to figure out the type of valves you need. There are lots of different ones. Closed center, open center, motoring, you can get lost. I don't have enough space here to cover them all.
It sounds more complicated than it is really. Once you figure out what you want to do, the choices are obvious.
BTW, since when I need my winch, I usually NEED my winch, I use a direct lever operated valve that comes up through the floorboard.
Less to go wrong.
But, they make some really nice Pilot-operated spool valves that run off 12 volts. Which means that you can just engage the PTO, and then everything is pushbutton after that.
Your valves can be mounted out of the way and operated from the cab or multiple locations.
Don't go that way if you need instantaneous operation. The spools need a half second or so to react.
Also, anyone considering my winch model. I made one mistake I regret. When I bought it, it came with either one of two motors.
The 8 Cubic Inch one I use, and a dual size 5-10 Cubic Inch.
I wish I had gone dual. It would have meant a little extra plumbing, but would have been well worth it.
The bigger the motor, the more power it develops per PSI. So, my winch would have run with less pressure when the motor was set on 10 ci.
Less pressure is always good. Less strain on the equipment and hoses. Think about clutch and U-Joint life running big tires on 3.50-1 vs 4.65-1 rear ends.
Then, by moving a remote valve, the motor would switch from a 10 ci to a 5, which means much faster cable wind in after you get out.
Believe me, putting 150 feet of cable on my winch the first time takes forever.
The 10 ci setting would be slower than the 8 I have now, but when you are dealing with that much pull, you want things to happen slowly.
J.
The problem with that is, that if you put the tranny in reverse, the PTO runs in reverse.
Not a problem if you are direct driving a winch, but a BIG problem with most hydraulic pumps.
Some types will only pump one way but not be damaged if spun backwards, some other types will pump either way, but the majority of them will be damaged or destroyed.
Something in the back of my mind tells me that if you run it off the 465, the PTO is independent of the gears and will turn the same way all the time.
If so, that is the way to go.
PTO units are really more common than it seems. They are just used more in larger equipment. Many wreckers have them. Some of the smaller ones use electric winches, but most are PTO.
Forget using an electric motor to run the pump. They don't have anywhere near the flow rate you need.
Also, a good rule of thumb, is that the minimum tank size is the max GPM of your pump.
My Pump is rated at 20GPM, and I have a 30 gallon tank. This lets me run the winch continuously. The extra oil and large tank lets the oil cool off. That way I don't have to run an oil cooler.
You do need a return line spin-on oil filter and a suction line screen to keep bad things out of the pump.
After that, you need to figure out the type of valves you need. There are lots of different ones. Closed center, open center, motoring, you can get lost. I don't have enough space here to cover them all.
It sounds more complicated than it is really. Once you figure out what you want to do, the choices are obvious.
BTW, since when I need my winch, I usually NEED my winch, I use a direct lever operated valve that comes up through the floorboard.
Less to go wrong.
But, they make some really nice Pilot-operated spool valves that run off 12 volts. Which means that you can just engage the PTO, and then everything is pushbutton after that.
Your valves can be mounted out of the way and operated from the cab or multiple locations.
Don't go that way if you need instantaneous operation. The spools need a half second or so to react.
Also, anyone considering my winch model. I made one mistake I regret. When I bought it, it came with either one of two motors.
The 8 Cubic Inch one I use, and a dual size 5-10 Cubic Inch.
I wish I had gone dual. It would have meant a little extra plumbing, but would have been well worth it.
The bigger the motor, the more power it develops per PSI. So, my winch would have run with less pressure when the motor was set on 10 ci.
Less pressure is always good. Less strain on the equipment and hoses. Think about clutch and U-Joint life running big tires on 3.50-1 vs 4.65-1 rear ends.
Then, by moving a remote valve, the motor would switch from a 10 ci to a 5, which means much faster cable wind in after you get out.
Believe me, putting 150 feet of cable on my winch the first time takes forever.
The 10 ci setting would be slower than the 8 I have now, but when you are dealing with that much pull, you want things to happen slowly.
J.
v30mongo
Registered Member
Pto winches
Pto driven winches make most electric units look like little toys.
Pto driven winches make most electric units look like little toys.
pennsylvaniaboy
1/2 ton status
first post and you brought this to the top lol
v30mongo
Registered Member
It says you have a 79 K30, OK. I have a 88 V30. I think there pretty much the same and you also have a sm465/205, Good. You can have a killer front mount pto winch if you a willing to shop around a work a little. First PTO: Chelsea makes a good one, Model 352. It's a reversable type. 68% opposite engine speed and 88% engine speed. With the proper input gear installed in the pto unit it will fit on your sm465 on the left side. The best is to have a lever shift but a cable shift will work, just remember half way on the cable shift is neutral. The output from the pto unit is 1 1/4" round with a woodruff key. Neapco is a good source for u joints, I used there 1200 series. They are good for 25 HP at 540 RPM. You will have to remote mount the oil filter because the pto shaft ti the front will be there. Look at the front cross member on your frame, there should be a oval hole on the divers side. Guess why it's there. The pto shaft will fit nicely through it . It might have to be enlarged slightley, looks like it was made for 3/4" shafting. As far a th winch goes,a Ramsey m200 or m300 will work good or as I did ,I used a Ramsey M600L . It's a 12k unit, industrial rated. You will have to fabricate your own front mount a bumper as they no longer a made by Ramsey. I used 5"x3" 3/8 thick angle. It is fixed to the frame by all 1/2" bolts. Spacers will be needed to get the input to the winch to match that hole in the frame. When you a through you will have a winch that will run from about 5 feet/min. to about 50 feet/min. depending on engine speed. And all at full load. There isn't a electric winch, except maybe on a large cargo ship, that can do that. Everyone will look at you like you'r nuts untill you are the one pulling out all the stuck junk at the mud bog like little rag dolls.
