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Ring and pinion gear questions, concerns etc.

jimmyleetn

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Alright so a little background on where I'm at, I discovered I had 3.08 gears and already had the front axle out of the truck because I had just painted it. I decided to go ahead and re-gear the front with 4.11 gears before I moved to the rear to paint and regear. I've never done it before but I got all the tools to do it including a T&D depth checker for the pinion depth. I bought a pair of motive gears and I've been going at it for about a week. I have one big issue at the moment.

My question is, is it normal to have a substantial amount of drag between the ring and pinion when it's a assembled and ready to run the check pattern? I have enough drag in some spots it's hard to turn the pinion yoke by hand. I currently have the bearing caps torque at only 25-ft lbs since I'm just in the testing stage. I've not tried torquing them all the way to spec. It does not matter how loose the pinion nut is so I don't think pinion bearing preload is it. Currently, not using a crush sleeve since I'm in the setup stage. I'm using setup bearings that match my bearing kit by the way too. When I removed the carrier to start this job it had a crazy amount of preload. I couldn't even get it out by sticking a rag in there and running it between the ring and pinion. I tried the wrench trick and the pry bar too. I had to pull it out with a 5lb slide hammer. It was a deal. I'm using the stock carrier shims still and driving them in with a shim driver. Each is .242in but I did mark them so I don't mix them up. I only painted one tooth on the drive and coast side so I could at least get an idea for what was going on. I didn't want to paint a bunch of teeth yet because I didn't think it was ready for that and they only gave me enough marking compound to do a little bit. I've blown more snot in a Kleenex than the marking compound I've got. I'm pretty sure I'll need to add at least 0.003in worth the shims or more to the pinion but it looks like I'm okay on the backlash side. Any guidance or direction at this point would help. I'm just amazed that it's so hard to spin the yoke in certain spots. I thought maybe I had installed the ring gear crooked so I removed it and reinstalled it when I had a helper to hold it still so I could torque every bolt evenly at 65 lb. I also lightly filed away the burs on the back of the ring gear and the carrier before installation. I can't imagine the ring gear isn't on there flush. I just wonder if during the break in the teeth will wear in and it won't be so stiff. I don't have anyone around here to bounce technical questions about regearing off of so anyone that really wants to get into this with me would be very helpful.

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I need calcification. You are saying the as you turn the pinion it gets harder and then easier as you go around the ring gear? Have you checked the run out of the carrier with a dial indicator?
 
I need calcification. You are saying the as you turn the pinion it gets harder and then easier as you go around the ring gear? Have you checked the run out of the carrier with a dial indicator?
Yes harder then easier. It's got at least two or four really tough spots.

I have not checked the backlash. It so stiff if I keep the pinion from moving the ring gear won't budge either. Makes me think that I should move the ring gear away from the pinion.
 
Something is not right. Remove the pinion. install the carrier and check the run out. See if it spin freely. In the bottom picture is that the 3.08 gears? That pinion is rather large for 4.10 ratio.
 
That's old pinion in the pic. The new ones are much smaller in diameter.

I installed the carrier without the pinion in the housing and snugged the bearing caps. It has some load but I can spin it freely with no rough spots.
 
just need to know if the carrier is true. that hard and then easy has me suspecting it might be warped. This is a 10 bolt, not a lot heft to it.
 
just need to know if the carrier is true. that hard and then easy has me suspecting it might be warped. This is a 10 bolt, not a lot heft to it.
Yes a standard 10 bolt front that was running 35in thornbirds before I bought it. The diff was full a mud and grit when started taking it apart. A inner seal went bad. It had mud it in when I bought it. I haven't been offroad. The PO has been a source of several problems I've found/fixed. Do you think the crud overheated it or do you think I warped it jerking it out of there? It came out bad crooked since the rag pushed the ring side out but not the other side out. The grit in there didn't help.

What's the procedure for determining if the carrier's warped?

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So I did some digging last night and figured out how to check the ring gear run out. I did it this morning. See my measurements below.

Ring Gear Axial runout = 0.001
Ring Gear Radial Runout = 0.005
Carrier Radial Runout = 0.020

The carrier runout blows my mind but if the ring gears only running out 0.005in it really doesn't matter what the carrier does since the ring gear is spinning kinda true. I guess my question is is 0.005 too much?

I'm going to play with backlash next. Currently it's so stiff I can't read it. I don't even hear the clicking sound.



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from your contact pattern(top contact) it looks like you need more pinion shim but i'm certainly no expert.

the gear set up bible on billavista.com was a good source for me- for some reason i can't post the link
 
from your contact pattern(top contact) it looks like you need more pinion shim but i'm certainly no expert.

the gear set up bible on billavista.com was a good source for me- for some reason i can't post the link
I'll have to take a look at that website. I had planned on pulling the carrier and changing the pinion depth. That is actually a different ring gear in a different pinion from when I started but they both had the same checking distance. We thought maybe one of the ring gears was warped but they both bound in the same places on the carrier. I'm still not sure why the it is binding when I spin unless my backlash is zero. I just got done counting all the shims from my kit. I'm going to move the ring gear away about 0.010 and see what happens.
 
hope it all goes well. regarding the carrier being in there tight, we had to tow strap ours to the top of the shop and hammer the axle housing away from the carrier to get ours out. then got to do that several more times as we fine tuned everything
 
My wife put me on baby duty this morning lol. Had to take a break. I read the gear set up Bible. Little different order of operations than what I read in the book and seen online. Overall I think it's still all the same. We tried the hoist method that you mentioned getting my carrier out and I was afraid we were going to lose/destroy everything. The slide hammer works wonders. I'm becoming a pro at getting it out of there. I haven't posted this on my build thread but I do have a Spartan Locker ready to go in that differential if I can ever figure this thing out. I'm really concerned about my axial run out. 0.005 is out of spec. Hopefully after lunch I'll have some more answers. I may call Motive Gear and ask them to.
 
hope it all goes well. regarding the carrier being in there tight, we had to tow strap ours to the top of the shop and hammer the axle housing away from the carrier to get ours out. then got to do that several more times as we fine tuned everything
I moved the the ring gear away about 0.006 or so and it's like butter. Still not a pattern worthy to be sent but looks like I'm back on track. I'll have to increase opinion shims as well before it's all said and done but I think I can find the target. I think I'm really close. My backlash is at 0.003. still tight but at least now I don't feel crazy.
 
You may see this on FB. I'll take anyone on here's opinion over somebody on there. Considering this is the front axle I think this is worthy. I wound up with a 0.039in shim on the pinion. My backlash is 0.007 at the lowest and 0.009 at the highest.

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You may see this on FB. I'll take anyone on here's opinion over somebody on there. Considering this is the front axle I think this is worthy. I wound up with a 0.039in shim on the pinion. My backlash is 0.007 at the lowest and 0.009 at the highest.

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Being that it’s a low pinion front, you have your drive and coast confused. But the pattern’s not too bad.
 
I agree with Eddie.
I would run that in a front axle. The edges are all feathered, not sharp. It could possibly get a look a little better with more work, but will you ever notice a difference in the front end where you probably won't use it at any decent speed?
 
looking 100% present better. Could pattern better with more resistance on ring gear while turning. hard to do while out on jack stands. I'd run it. this is a part time front axle ?
 
looking 100% present better. Could pattern better with more resistance on ring gear while turning. hard to do while out on jack stands. I'd run it. this is a part time front axle ?
Yes this is part time. Hooked up to an NP208 w/700r4 and Warn Premium locking hubs.

Thank you for telling me to check that axial and radial runout. It made a lot more sense when I was checking backlash because it bounced around some as I hit different spots on the ring gear. If I had've known what I know now I probably would have bought the performance line instead of the standard Motive gears but I'm not heard a whole lot of bad about either so who knows.
 
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