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Roll cage design recommendations with pictures

Just toss some gussets on this design and it will be fine. No need to add anything else IMO.

cage_1.jpg


Are you going to use aftermarket seat belts or stock? IF your running aftermarker 4 or 5 point harness's the tube angled down behind the seat may need to be relocated. You dont want the seat belt mount point too low, not to mention it's angled so that creates a problem. Just my .02 cents.

It looks like your mounting your rear mounting point in the corners of the bed in the same spots mine are in. In a good structured part of the body, not just thru a single layer of sheet metal.
 
Are you going to use aftermarket seat belts or stock?

I'm not that far yet. I'd like to move up to at least a 3-point belt and may just go to 4 or 5 point since it's probably the same amount of work going up from 2-point.

If I stick with the stock seat mounting setup, I will have to add an additional structure behind the seat for belts that is separate from the cage.

I still need to determine if I want to mount the seats to the cage. I understand that the seats and the belts should be mounted to the same thing. Just taking it slow and planning now.
 
I would also put some kind of X in the rear rectangle over head. That would help with tieing it all together better. Have you ever made a rectangle out of wood using just nails? Something like 1 foot wide by two feet tall for an example. It has allmost no side load strength, and supports very little weight without colapsing. It wants to fold and break at the joints and colapse.

It only has strength if you lay it over on it's edges and put weight on the top opposite edge. But standing up it's weak when pushed side to side in one direction or the other. If you put one leg of an X brace it's strong in one direction. If you push sidways from the side with the X brace leg at the top, it's strong, but not as strong if pushed from the oppisite side. Put an X brace corner to corner, in BOTH plain's and it's strong as hell in ANY direction of force.

Same principle as leaning two playing cards together at equal angles to each other, Because their at an angle they have Triangulated structure. Try putting a card across two playing cards standing up vertically, there is no way they will stand up. Even in a side flop, that design if it took a hit at a corner would rack very easily without triangulation.
 
your pic in post #34 is exactly what I have currently in my rig. If I didn't know better I would have thought you copied it to a tee.

I have seen a couple pics when your rig was GMOTM. I've been browsing multiple examples all over the place so there could be some parts I copied. I'd like to see some more pictures of your cage.
 
I'm not that far yet. I'd like to move up to at least a 3-point belt and may just go to 4 or 5 point since it's probably the same amount of work going up from 2-point.

If I stick with the stock seat mounting setup, I will have to add an additional structure behind the seat for belts that is separate from the cage.

I still need to determine if I want to mount the seats to the cage. I understand that the seats and the belts should be mounted to the same thing. Just taking it slow and planning now.


Looks to me like your on your way to a full blown caged K5, Just go for it, your half way there. Good to see your taking your time thinking about doing it right.
 
I would also put some kind of X in the rear rectangle over head.

Do you mean something similar to the green supports in the post #35? I'm fairly familiar with triangulation principles in general and I'm open to modifying the design or adding additional supports. In general I'm trying to strike a balance between ultimate rigidity and usefulness.

It looks like your mounting your rear mounting point in the corners of the bed in the same spots mine are in.

I think I did swipe that from your thread. Seems like a nice spot to tie it down.
 
Do you mean something similar to the green supports in the post #35?.



No, in post 35 the green go down to the floor. I meant an X over head from corner to corner in the rectangle over head. Like this.

Sorry bout the triangulation lesson, I go off on a tangent sometimes. :D I'm sure you know what up with that stuff.

DSCN2014.JPG
 
I would also put some kind of X in the rear rectangle over head. That would help with tieing it all together better. Have you ever made a rectangle out of wood using just nails? Something like 1 foot wide by two feet tall for an example. It has allmost no side load strength, and supports very little weight without colapsing. It wants to fold and break at the joints and colapse.

It only has strength if you lay it over on it's edges and put weight on the top opposite edge. But standing up it's weak when pushed side to side in one direction or the other. If you put one leg of an X brace it's strong in one direction. If you push sidways from the side with the X brace leg at the top, it's strong, but not as strong if pushed from the oppisite side. Put an X brace corner to corner, in BOTH plain's and it's strong as hell in ANY direction of force.

Same principle as leaning two playing cards together at equal angles to each other, Because their at an angle they have Triangulated structure. Try putting a card across two playing cards standing up vertically, there is no way they will stand up. Even in a side flop, that design if it took a hit at a corner would rack very easily without triangulation.

Putting an x in the roof isn't going to add strength in any relevant way as far as a roll is concerned. It'll keep the roof tubing from collapsing, but that's about it. The a and b pillars can fold over just as easy, hence the way I suggested adding gussets before. Adding bracing to the roof is simply adding tubing in the wrong plane.

The best place to put an x is between the two sides of the b-pillar, but of course this severely limits passenger entry.


Look at it this way, consider each bend and node (a node is a place where two pieces of tubing come together) as a hinged joint.

See this drawing of a plain b-pillar (circles model the bends/nodes as hinges):

hinged1.jpg


This will fail quite easily when hit from the top or side, its not a stable structure. The force is able to use the maximum amount of leverage from the mounting point and the weakest part of the structure (the bend) will fold over relatively easily.

Its easy to tell if a structure is stable or not (which basically determines if it has sufficient triangulation) by modeling with hinges like this, if the structure would fall over by looking at it (like this one would), its not stable.


By adding gussets, the structure becomes stable. The lever arm is reduced and the weak point in the system (the bend) is eliminated. I'm not going to do the calculations but I bet those two 6" pieces of tube increase the strength of this structure by 30-50%. Here, the failure point would be just below the gusset which would require much more force.

hinged2.jpg


The strongest way to do it is with a cross like this, at this point the tubing would have to fail in compression (never going to happen, at least in a situation that a person might survive).


hinged3.jpg
 
I meant an X over head from corner to corner in the rectangle over head.

Ok, I get it now. That probably wouldn't impede the home depot utility.

I was just letting it be known I'm not a complete newb in geometry, although I have no specific experience in roll cage design so don't hesitate to keep the lessons coming. :)
 
This IS exactly what I was talking about. It WOULD increase strength in the cage from a side impact at the corner, Like a flop where the rear corner hit first. Having an X brace would help for sure.



hinged3.jpg
 
My suggestions are in blue... I think adding these would be a minimum to have a cage that would survive at least one hard forward or backward roll.

cage_1.jpg


but for reference... here is my ode to triangulation...

k51.jpg


DSC00694.jpg
 
My suggestions are in blue... I think adding these would be a minimum to have a cage that would survive at least one hard forward or backward roll.

cage_1.jpg


but for reference... here is my ode to triangulation...

k51.jpg


DSC00694.jpg



Yes, that is what I was talking about, the X overhead in Blue, The pic I posted of my cage showed that.
 
This IS exactly what I was talking about. It WOULD increase strength in the cage from a side impact at the corner, Like a flop where the rear corner hit first. Having an X brace would help for sure.



hinged3.jpg

Having an x like that in the roof will help in a side impact, but only a little. It does next to nothing in a top-side impact.

Strength in the a and b pillars, side to side, will make the most difference by far.
 
My suggestions are in blue... I think adding these would be a minimum to have a cage that would survive at least one hard forward or backward roll.

cage_1.jpg

Look at this design from the front or back and it looks like this:

hinged1.jpg


In a side impact, its going to do this because it has no triangulation in that plane:

hinged4.jpg
 
I should add, its not that the bracing in the roof is totally worthless. I have a similar setup on my truck.

But the most important place to brace is the a and b pillars, side to side.
 
Having an x like that in the roof will help in a side impact, but only a little. It does next to nothing in a top-side impact.

Strength in the a and b pillars, side to side, will make the most difference by far.


Most side impacts are from a basic flop on the side, where the cage would see a possible hit at the A piller, or rear corner of the cage. To me thats a side impact. If it hit on the tube spanning between the A & B piller, sure it's not going to do much, the tube would just bend or dent. Ofcourse the Pillers are the main strength/load bearing tube, but with out triangulation their going to bend/move easier, especially a rear corner hit. 6" to 10" Gussets would help for sure, better then nothing. But I still feel a full X brace is a stronger setup. Besides it adds some over head safety for something coming in the head area like a tree branch vs it just being full open over head.
 
Look at this design from the front or back and it looks like this:

hinged1.jpg


In a side impact, its going to do this because it has no triangulation in that plane:

hinged4.jpg


I know what your trying to relay. The pic IS the A or B pillar. An X brace here would help tremendously, thats in the same plain as the Pillar itself. But you would lose the pass thru from the Driver/passenger seats to the rear seating area. The over head X still helps both A & B pillar to a certain degree while leaving an open feel to the cage allowing a pass thru.
 
I know what your trying to relay. The pic IS the A or B pillar. An X brace here would help tremendously, thats in the same plain as the Pillar itself. But you would lose the pass thru from the Driver/passenger seats to the rear seating area. The over head X still helps both A & B pillar to a certain degree while leaving an open feel to the cage allowing a pass thru.

I think we're on the same page here.

I also realize that he doesn't want an x running through the passenger entry area, which is why I recommended the gussets at the a, b and c pillars (side to side).

Tying everything together via the roof (via x's or whatever) will help but is tertiary to a and b pillar strength IMO.
 
Look at this design from the front or back and it looks like this:

hinged1.jpg


In a side impact, its going to do this because it has no triangulation in that plane:

hinged4.jpg

I agree that without cross bracing it is not as strong as it could be, I am trying to make suggestions that would still allow him to use the k5 as a people hauler and get into the rear without any problems. The point of the cross in the big open section in the top is to distribute impact from the rear corners to the rest of the cage. I think that there will be many comprimises no matter how you do it.

When I built mine I left out an X brace for the b pillar because I didnt want to hit my head on it. I have seen more injuries from hitting the cage with a head than a cage failure. I attempted to make up for the lack of a b pillar X with redistribution of force into other tubes, but it will never be as strong as if I had built it with the X
 
I agree that without cross bracing it is not as strong as it could be, I am trying to make suggestions that would still allow him to use the k5 as a people hauler and get into the rear without any problems. The point of the cross in the big open section in the top is to distribute impact from the rear corners to the rest of the cage. I think that there will be many comprimises no matter how you do it.

When I built mine I left out an X brace for the b pillar because I didnt want to hit my head on it. I have seen more injuries from hitting the cage with a head than a cage failure. I attempted to make up for the lack of a b pillar X with redistribution of force into other tubes, but it will never be as strong as if I had built it with the X


You can ALWAYS fit gussets ;)
 

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