Stomis
Professional Amateur
Ah ok so I've read on this a little and it seems to cause terrible axle wrap. Are there any solutions for that?
CK5
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saw something interesting...
- Thread starter K5dreamer
- Start date
fishinnutt
1/2 ton status
You could probably still run something like a M.O.R.E. anti wrap setup.
Or the DIY "wraptor"
fishinnutt
1/2 ton status
After seeing how the M.O.R.E. is made, I would definitely DIY it.
1/4 elliptic suspensions really do need links to locate the axle, the "half leaf spring" is generally only there to hold the weight of the truck.
As for a 3/4 elliptic, it will be squirrelly too without links or a panhard bar. And as mentioned, axle wrap will probably be a significant issue.
When I linked the rear of my truck I initially thought about using a 1/4 elliptic spring and then decided on (free) coil springs instead.
You don't need to do anything as crazy as "elliptic suspensions" to get good flex.
This was my truck a while back, 52's front and rear (the rear was using the stock shackle setup).
You can get all the flex you need from leaf springs. The only downfall to leaves are clearance and axle wrap. You can bandaid the axle wrap problem with an anti-wrap bar.
Links are the best but they require more time and a bit more money.
IMO, 3/4 elliptic suspensions like this are gimmicky ways to get more articulation. They look unstable and probably don't serve much real purpose on the trail (let alone how they probably perform on the street).
As for a 3/4 elliptic, it will be squirrelly too without links or a panhard bar. And as mentioned, axle wrap will probably be a significant issue.
When I linked the rear of my truck I initially thought about using a 1/4 elliptic spring and then decided on (free) coil springs instead.
You don't need to do anything as crazy as "elliptic suspensions" to get good flex.
This was my truck a while back, 52's front and rear (the rear was using the stock shackle setup).
You can get all the flex you need from leaf springs. The only downfall to leaves are clearance and axle wrap. You can bandaid the axle wrap problem with an anti-wrap bar.
Links are the best but they require more time and a bit more money.
IMO, 3/4 elliptic suspensions like this are gimmicky ways to get more articulation. They look unstable and probably don't serve much real purpose on the trail (let alone how they probably perform on the street).
you make valuable points! thanks!!
fishinnutt
1/2 ton status
1/4 elliptic suspensions really do need links to locate the axle, the "half leaf spring" is generally only there to hold the weight of the truck.
As for a 3/4 elliptic, it will be squirrelly too without links or a panhard bar. And as mentioned, axle wrap will probably be a significant issue.
When I linked the rear of my truck I initially thought about using a 1/4 elliptic spring and then decided on (free) coil springs instead.
You don't need to do anything as crazy as "elliptic suspensions" to get good flex.
This was my truck a while back, 52's front and rear (the rear was using the stock shackle setup).
You can get all the flex you need from leaf springs. The only downfall to leaves are clearance and axle wrap. You can bandaid the axle wrap problem with an anti-wrap bar.
Links are the best but they require more time and a bit more money.
IMO, 3/4 elliptic suspensions like this are gimmicky ways to get more articulation. They look unstable and probably don't serve much real purpose on the trail (let alone how they probably perform on the street).
The leaf spring setup on our Blazers continues to amaze me. I have never seen another vehicle with leaf springs articulate as well with as our Blazers do. My friends Jeep YJ hardly articulates at all with leaf springs. I know what you mean about the gimicky part, I have seen people with revolver shackles that could not even get them to open up because of the resulting position of everything after the install.
There are a LOT of variables between different vehicles, so simply stating that you saw one particuliar vehicle with leaf springs that did not flex well so therefor all vehicles with leaf springs don't flex is not a very accurate statement.
This is what my rig is capable of with just off the shelf 4" lift springs on the front, stock 52" rear springs with a shackle flip, and standard off the shelf length lift shocks all the way around which limit travel.
Coil and linked suspensions don't necessarily have issues with huge nose dive under heavy braking as described in a previous post either. It's all about the geometry of how the rear suspension is set up (terms such as anti-dive and anti-squat are used), and how the front suspension reacts plays a big role also.
Anyway, I'm not real fond of the funky buggy spring or 3/4 eliptical suspensions. With the unrestricted droop they have, and the loads of additional leverage they allow between the shackle mount and frame which would allow additional sway of the springs and the stress on the mounts. I would think it's alot easier to deal with those on a rear suspension than the front. If you had the buggy springs or 3/4 setup on the front springs (shackle side) you would have deal with making the steering system work and the crazy driveshaft angles when the axle went full droop.
Another issue I have seen with this setup on just the rear is it causes unbalanced articulation between the front and rear. Vehicles always seem to work better on the trail if articulation is equal (or shared equally) between the front and rear suspension. Look at my picture above where the front and rear have pretty close to equal articulation and thus the body stays relatively level. I've personally seen vehicles with crazy amounts of uncontrolled rear wheel droop that doesn't force the front to articulate and thus have huge amounts of body lean/roll in the same situation.
This is what my rig is capable of with just off the shelf 4" lift springs on the front, stock 52" rear springs with a shackle flip, and standard off the shelf length lift shocks all the way around which limit travel.
Coil and linked suspensions don't necessarily have issues with huge nose dive under heavy braking as described in a previous post either. It's all about the geometry of how the rear suspension is set up (terms such as anti-dive and anti-squat are used), and how the front suspension reacts plays a big role also.
Anyway, I'm not real fond of the funky buggy spring or 3/4 eliptical suspensions. With the unrestricted droop they have, and the loads of additional leverage they allow between the shackle mount and frame which would allow additional sway of the springs and the stress on the mounts. I would think it's alot easier to deal with those on a rear suspension than the front. If you had the buggy springs or 3/4 setup on the front springs (shackle side) you would have deal with making the steering system work and the crazy driveshaft angles when the axle went full droop.
Another issue I have seen with this setup on just the rear is it causes unbalanced articulation between the front and rear. Vehicles always seem to work better on the trail if articulation is equal (or shared equally) between the front and rear suspension. Look at my picture above where the front and rear have pretty close to equal articulation and thus the body stays relatively level. I've personally seen vehicles with crazy amounts of uncontrolled rear wheel droop that doesn't force the front to articulate and thus have huge amounts of body lean/roll in the same situation.
fishinnutt
1/2 ton status
All I am saying is, it would seem the Blazers seem to articulate really well with leaf springs. I think the biggest advantage Blazers have in the flex department is a longer flatter leaf spring. If there was one vehicle I might have considered leaving the leaf springs as a part of the build, it would have been the Blazer (spring wrap killed the deal though). I don't think I ever said that leaf springs didn't flex well.
As to the nose dive with coil overs, there is usually more of that in a coil over rig destined for rock crawling due to the soft primary spring. Body roll and nose dive is going to likely be more because of the soft first spring. People that have coil overs often need a sway bar to combat and control the extra body roll due to the soft spring also. Trophy trucks can exhibit crazy amounts of body roll for instance with sustained lateral g forces and there isn't anything particularly wrong with their link geometry.
I think the terms anti-squat and anti-dive are much more relevant when the vehicle is being driven or propelled along under it's own power. The acceleration causes weight transfer also but the axle is either trying to drive under the truck, remain neutral or squat depending on geometry in that case. When I mention nose dive during braking, I am talking about the rapid weight transfer that occurs during hard braking and I don't know how much link geometry can control or enhance that.
As to the nose dive with coil overs, there is usually more of that in a coil over rig destined for rock crawling due to the soft primary spring. Body roll and nose dive is going to likely be more because of the soft first spring. People that have coil overs often need a sway bar to combat and control the extra body roll due to the soft spring also. Trophy trucks can exhibit crazy amounts of body roll for instance with sustained lateral g forces and there isn't anything particularly wrong with their link geometry.
I think the terms anti-squat and anti-dive are much more relevant when the vehicle is being driven or propelled along under it's own power. The acceleration causes weight transfer also but the axle is either trying to drive under the truck, remain neutral or squat depending on geometry in that case. When I mention nose dive during braking, I am talking about the rapid weight transfer that occurs during hard braking and I don't know how much link geometry can control or enhance that.
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K5dreamer
1/2 ton status
ok, so there are obvious concerns with the 3/4 setup, everything certainly has pro's and cons.
so how about this senario. which i happen to be in. Where a K5 owner is looking to do a mild 4in lift. but on a budget most 4in lift kits have blocks in the rear. Most would simply do a shackle flip in the rear for the added lift, but what about replacing the blocks in the rear with a 3/4 setup with the 1/4 spring stacked to give the equivilant of a 4in lift.
so simply which would you prefer, blocks or a 3/4 rear setup?
so how about this senario. which i happen to be in. Where a K5 owner is looking to do a mild 4in lift. but on a budget most 4in lift kits have blocks in the rear. Most would simply do a shackle flip in the rear for the added lift, but what about replacing the blocks in the rear with a 3/4 setup with the 1/4 spring stacked to give the equivilant of a 4in lift.
so simply which would you prefer, blocks or a 3/4 rear setup?
fishinnutt
1/2 ton status
If prefer the shackle flip and the proper longer shackle with no block at all. The correct longer spring for your application would also be apart of that recipe. The shackle flip is not without it's down side either. I have had blocks on my vehicles that came with budget lift kits (rough country) They never let me down but, I also was not very abusive to those vehicles either. I have even owned trucks (camper special package) that had massive stacked blocks from the factory that never failed either. When a block does fail it can be kind of ugly.
Whether acceleration or braking, you still get rapid weight transfer to either the front or back. It's well discussed that tweaking the "anti-squat" numbers for the rear suspension can make the rear axle go up during acceleration, so based on that there is no reason you couldn't make the front end go up (versus diving down) under heavy braking.
I'll be perfectly honest and say I'm not that big into off-road/desert race trucks but I've never seen an high-end race truck that appeared to have major body lean in turns. They usually have tons of vertical travel, but also big swaybars to counteract the lean. No matter what, a large amount of body lean during turns is not conducive to fast speeds.
But anyway, back to the last question......blocks or 3/4 elliptical. My choice would be neither, and those two options are pretty far apart from each other. Blocks are probably the easiest, quickest, and cheapest lift option out there. While you could probably do a homebrew 3/4 elliptical setup pretty cheap, it's not exactly an easy project. Not like you pull some parts out of the junkyard and bolt them on the truck and call it good. You would need at least moderate fabrication skills to make a half-way decent set of brackets and such.
I'll be perfectly honest and say I'm not that big into off-road/desert race trucks but I've never seen an high-end race truck that appeared to have major body lean in turns. They usually have tons of vertical travel, but also big swaybars to counteract the lean. No matter what, a large amount of body lean during turns is not conducive to fast speeds.
But anyway, back to the last question......blocks or 3/4 elliptical. My choice would be neither, and those two options are pretty far apart from each other. Blocks are probably the easiest, quickest, and cheapest lift option out there. While you could probably do a homebrew 3/4 elliptical setup pretty cheap, it's not exactly an easy project. Not like you pull some parts out of the junkyard and bolt them on the truck and call it good. You would need at least moderate fabrication skills to make a half-way decent set of brackets and such.
fishinnutt
1/2 ton status
As an example of major trophy truck lean/body roll I would use the very first left turn of the baja 1000 as an ideal example. One side of the front completely compressed the other side completely extended and 1-2' off the ground nearly rolling over. Lateral g force induced and not something you would like in your mini van/DD.
K5dreamer
1/2 ton status
ok, so pretty much, the consensus here is...
3/4 rear springs on trail rigs = ok for articulation, but a problem with wheel hop and axle wrap
3/4 rear springs on the street = smack to the back of the head for being dumb
blocks = not bad..... but certainly not preferred
proper lift or shackle flip = uber alles
3/4 rear springs on trail rigs = ok for articulation, but a problem with wheel hop and axle wrap
3/4 rear springs on the street = smack to the back of the head for being dumb
blocks = not bad..... but certainly not preferred
proper lift or shackle flip = uber alles
K5dreamer
1/2 ton status
cuz this is what i would be looking at to replace the blocks in a lift kit...
http://mobile.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=87885&d=1065937495
the lift can be done by use of an "H" shackle, the buggy spring would only assist in articulation, but be flush against the frame for all else. axle wrap shouldnt be any worse than stock, although i could see wheel hop being a problem with the suspension fully extended.
http://mobile.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=87885&d=1065937495
the lift can be done by use of an "H" shackle, the buggy spring would only assist in articulation, but be flush against the frame for all else. axle wrap shouldnt be any worse than stock, although i could see wheel hop being a problem with the suspension fully extended.
