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Serious issue's....... Engine GURU'S Needed....Please !

T

twenty_below0

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Haines, Alaska ...u.s.
Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

As you know I have had this long rod small block in for about a year now and it runs Strong . But has been using oil lately and I'm now positive it is burning it . (blowing the blue's) Not all the time but if you ,"sitting still" rev it up to say 3500 or 4000 it will puff out blue smoke , exiting and when you let off right at the end of the rev. it puffs out a couple puffs then stops . This motor has maybe 15,000 miles and hasn't been ran that hard every now and then in mud and sand but the "majority" of the miles are daily driving .
SPECS: It's a balanced 0.040 over 350 with 3.50" stroke 6.00" rods KB pistons and ToTal Seal Gapless rings . I just put another set of heads on it a few weeks ago hoping to eleviate this problem and praying , but it's just the same and ever so slowly getting worse . When I did the swap there was no cylinder wear or sign of problems every whole looked the same and good , you could still see the cross hatch in the cylinders. (Oh it's puffin off both banks) . So I am at a loss for words or thoughts with this motor . I have like $4000.00 in this sbc with the latest set of heads so I'm really hurtin here , with the loss and the wife ! I dont know what to do . All machine work and file fitting the rings ,"bottom end" was done by a reputable machine shop thats known for building the best motors this side of Canada . Followed the usual 20 minute break in and then drove it normal for 200 or 300 hundred miles before it ever seen anything more than 3500 , The machine shop said break in the cam then "run it" ! So I went beyond there recommendations even . Now I want to start a Big Block project and I cant justify the cash when the new motor I already have is shittin out . Both with myself and my wife . More importantly I have alot of money in this oil burner . What are your thoughts ? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/1zhelp.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

if it's both sides of the block, and since you've changed your head, and it's still doing it, i would think that maybe the rings are letting some oil by, maybe they used a cheap set, or they could be factory seconds. or the shop might have not put them offset enough to seal the cylinder walls. just my $.02
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

What is the expected life of the Total Seal Gapless rings? Everything I've read about them has praised the increase in power that can be had by using them, but I've never seen or heard how long they last. Are they meant just for hardcore racers that swap pistons and rings on an annual (or more often!) basis? The part of the ring that overlaps just seems to be pretty thin. Just taking a Scientific Wild A$$ Guess at the problem. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

Did you get any kind of warrenty on the motor ??? Alot of shops will fix at thier cost too keep customers happy. A good reputation go's along ways tords more bussiness. A bad rep can really hurt bussiness.
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

I had a problem with some Total Seal Gapless rings on a 454 that I had. Sounds like the same issue, the blowby was increasing with use (seemed almost daily /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ). I took the motor apart, had it re-honed, and ran some Childs and Albert ZGS (Zero Gap Seconds) and the problem was eliminated. Obviously I cannot comment as to whether it was the rings or the ring seating since I changed the rings and had the honing done, but I had heard of this problem elsewhere with the Total Seal Gapless. Hope you figure it out!
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

[ QUOTE ]
Childs and Albert ZGS

[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif Like'em alot !!! Good rings !!!! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

How is your crankcase vent? Is the pcv valve venting into the carb or atmosphere. If the valve is stuck it could be running oil and crankcase vapor through the intake and burning the oil that way causing the smoke.

That is what it sounds like to me anyway...

John
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

Yes I thought of this so I disconnected the pcv valve and ran another stack like the other side and still the problem but I thought I had figured it out.....no luck though, I guess I could buy a leak down tester and see which holes are leaking and which aren't .....if there are any . I will call and talk with the owner tomorrow about the situation but it's been a year and for all he knows I could have ran the piss out of it . I bet this is what I will hear .
The heads have been really worked and I would be willing to bet it's not the valves sticking ....I have actually had the covers off and reset the lash the old school way then put the stud girdles back on so I cant see them starting to stick now . I hate to have to tear it down just for a ring job.... DAMN , thats alot of bullshit for such a stupid problem . No body knows of a miracle solution to pour into it to get them to seat ? Well unless I get a miracle this is what I guess I will do . /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

OK so did you run just the second rings or the whole set ? Can you thijnk of any other way to get them to seat , getting it hot will make it worse I would assume ? GEEZ I'm really not liking this.... now I have a big block sitting here wanting to be built and I have to "rebuild" my "rebuilt" sm. block . /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

I'd have to agreee with the idea that your oil control rings aren't seating.


Aside from taking the pistons out and re-honing your cylinder walls I'm not sure of any other ways to help it out.

From the top, it would be hard to get anyting past your compression rings to actually make a difference and from the bottom ............ I don't like the idea of putting abrasives in the oil. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gifI've never tried it and I don't know if it would work but you may try some upper cylinder cleaner that you pour in your intake. I would think that it would rinse the oil from the cylinder walls and allow the rings to scrape a bit. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif



[ QUOTE ]
No body knows of a miracle solution to pour into it to get them to seat ?

[/ QUOTE ]




I met an old Caterpillar mechanic when I was re-building Diesel engines (Cummins, Cats and Detroits) in the Army who showed me a really neat trick to get chrome (very hard) rings to seat properly and quickly.

He would run the engine up to 3K RPM (thats screaming for an 800+ cid diesel) and then dump a can of Bon Ami in the intake!
1750004403CF.GIF


It worked great ...... but I wouldn't try it on a gasoline engine.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

Purhaps I could get the rings to seat if I take all the plugs out the spray ea. cylinder down really well with wd-40 or some thing else "Karosine"? and then crank it over for a long time , I could even pull the distributor if need be to stop the oiling but I think thats a little hard on everything else , someone has to know a little secret any suggestions on this possibly ?? My concern is will this ring job (if I do it) change the balance job that was done on the rotating assembly ? ... /forums/images/graemlins/1zhelp.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

[ QUOTE ]
well I think the only real way to solve the issue is to do the ring job but my only concern is will this change the balance job that was done on the rotating assembly ? Can someone answer this for me ... /forums/images/graemlins/1zhelp.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It shouldn't change the balance job. All your slugs should have been balanced individually so everything should be fine.
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

[ QUOTE ]
I met an old Caterpillar mechanic when I was re-building Diesel engines (Cummins, Cats and Detroits) in the Army who showed me a really neat trick to get chrome (very hard) rings to seat properly and quickly.

He would run the engine up to 3K RPM (thats screaming for an 800+ cid diesel) and then dump a can of Bon Ami in the intake!


[/ QUOTE ]

When the original 265 cid small block Chevy engine came out for the '55 model year, the factory honing process was no good, and they had a lot of problems with poor ring seal causing oil burning like this. The factory actually recommended the Bon Ami trick as a way for dealers to fix the motors. I think I'd be a little nervous to try it on my engine, but maybe it would work.
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

[ QUOTE ]
OK so did you run just the second rings or the whole set ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whole set. They are called ZGS because (instead of the standard second ring having a gap) the second ring is gapless. I can't think of any other 'right' way to get them seated. In the interest of longevity, you may just have to do it over (as much as it totally sucks /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ).
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

Well I talked with the machine shop today and he said that ToTal Seal makes the second ring and the compression ring and the oil retension rings
are made by either Hastings or Sealed Power . So to buy a set of Hasting rings and leave the second gapless ring on ea. slug then put new compression
and oil rings on them and put it back together . He also said to be very diligent if rehoning the holes and put a tight rag at the bottom of ea. cylinder
because the grit and shavings get into the cast iron at the bottom of the block and wont come clean unless it hot tanked or after its ran and gets into
the oil causing bearing problems . So does this ring true to all you that have loads of experience . So should I just put it back together with out the hone ?
I would have it tanked and honed by him but its a hard 4 hour drive from me and not really possible right now . Boy decisions , decisions what a wonderful
ordeal . /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

I looked into the "gapless" rings with a couple of shops and called the MFG of KB pistons. Every shop that I talked with recomended against using gapless rings unless the motor had to make every last HP AND would be torn down on a regular basis. The reason I was given is that the rings would lose their oil control ability. It sounds like they were right. I will be running standard moly rings and give up a few HP. The BBC should make more than enough anyways
Mike
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

Hm...you are in a $hitty spot. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I guess you could try and throw the new rings in without the hone and see what happens. I am not saying it will or will not work, but I sure wouldn't re-hone if I wasn't taking the whole thing apart. The chances of all that metal in the engine is just too damn risky. If you don't re-hone it, and just toss the new rings in and the problem is solved, you have saved yourself some hassle, that is for sure. All it costs you to re-ring is some rings and a bit of time. I wish I had better advice for you...good luck!
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

Here's an excerpt from an engine rebuilding article in the November 2001 issue of Car Craft magazine:

"Though honing before a re-ring is taken by many to be common knowledge as basic as high school auto shop, we've heard from some respected sources, including Speed-Pro and Chevrolet service operations, that the exercise is a complete waste of time and shouldn't be done."

Sounds like you might want to contact the folks at Speed-Pro and ask what rings they would recommend for your situation! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif That would certainly save you a lot of work and aggravation.
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

Do it right, totally teat it down, get the Child & Alberts ZGS rings, Hone and hot tank it. Yes, it may be a pain, but anything worth doing, is worth doing right !!!!!!!!
 
Re: Serious issue\'s....... Engine GURU\'S Needed....Please !

OK AN UPDATE: I have talked with everybody involved in the deal and according to
"ToTal Seal" the finished hone should have been done with 220 grit and it was done
with a JHU-820 on a sunnin machine which is way to smooth for these rings to grab or seal .
As you said the tear down and rehone is a must and doing it right is the only way to insure a complete
job and longevity for my little ripper . It should run even better with a good sealing which is nice to hear . So thank you CK5
once agin for more encouragement and help . Now the tear down begins . /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
 
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