Setting up a coil over suspension for crawling and hauling

[PJTPW]

For those of you with coil overs, how much of a gain in performance did you get in the "go fast" sections of a trail. I'm looking to set up a suspension that I can crawl with, but also haul seriously fast in the open areas.

I guess what I'm looking for is comparisions to leaves for those that have linked their vehicles. Ex: you could go 25 mph in bad sections with leaves, but with coilovers 40 mph is now the limit. Input from Juan, Stephen, Brandon, and others that have run leaves and later coilovers is especially welcome.

Also how did you deal with uptravel, and how much are you running. I'm leaning toward an 18" SAW, and setting it up for 8-9 inches of uptravel and 9-10" of down travel. Thoughts on this?

Also is there enough of a difference in the regular King prerunners vs. the race versions for what we do? I'm guessing not.

Does Brandon's Mini-wally have the axle forward of the engine? I can see that it will take strategic drivetrain placement to keep a lot of uptravel, and still keep a low COG.

And what about bump stops. I've talked to a few guys running the air bumps, and swear by them for the bigger stuff.

All input is welcome. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

Ryan

 

[juanblzer]

It was a night and day difference for the go fast sections of trails. I just had king revalve my rear coilovers and man they kick ass. I am not running limiting straps or bumpstops. Randy Ellis (TTC Winner, Master Fabricator,) built my suspension and was pretty clear about me not needing them [limiting straps]. I may run air bump stops but I will truss the front dana60 first.
Im running 2.5 14 inch travel kings. I was told that anything but full race is a waste of the 3inch kings [and they are big bucks].

I have not had any speed limits off road. I am still learning the limits of my rig but it is really fun. Ask Marv about my little showboating around hells revenge's exit. It did buck a little in the rear, but that seems to be fixed by the revalve.

I would never go back to leaves.
I want to put coilovers on every vehicle I own. My 1970 two wheel drive longbed /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gifquivers with delight everytime I mention it.

 

[big pappa b]

So Juan, not that I think I really want to know...what's a setup like that go far? I mean, is it 1 extra mortgage on my house or 2

 

[PJTPW]

I'm figuring about 3K for front and 3K for the rear. And that's doing all the labor myself.

Ryan

 

[big pappa b]

/forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif

I'll be keeping my leaves. They're paid for already /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[blk87K5]

Well, I'm not any of the peeps mentioned in your post, but I'll throw my $.02 in also.

I have gone from a full bodied K5 with crap shprings, to Alcan springs/good shocks, Alcan springs dual bling shocks, and now I have Air shocks on my comp buggy.

I think alot of it depends on how much time and money your are going to commit to throwing at it. From your post, you are basically already committed and might already know your answer.

With the Alcan springs and nice dual shocks, I could haul some serious ass. It got a little light in the rear sometimes, but with a good tracton bar, I could lay down some swamper.

IMHO, air bumps are not needed for our rigs. I think for the amount of money the cost, regular bumps work just fine. I have never had air bumps, only Air shocks with the built in air bump along with regular Rancho poly bumps. I also dont have the nuts to jump my rig the 10+ feet needed to justify the air bumps. They are way bitchin on the bling scale though if that is what you're goin for.

Most of the vehicles I have owned or driven have not had as much uptravel as what you are contemplating though. Most of the buggies I hang around only have 3-5" of up travel and the rest is all down. Most only use 14" travel coil overs or air shocks, some have 16". I have 12" on the front and 16" on the rear. I think 18" travel shocks would be way over kill. Why waste weight and $$$?

My axle is a good bit farther than the front of the engine. My air shocks on the front are also leaned back at an angle and mounted to the lower control arms.

I dont think King does anything that SAW, Fox, or Bilstein doesnt do. I dont understand why everyone thinks King shocks are so bad ass. I know if this was a desert racing forum things might be different. I kind of like the remote resovoir Bilstein 9100 rock crawler shocks for the quality and value myself. Plenty of shock for what we do and not a bad price either.

I love having the link suspension and air shocks. Although I havent driven the current buggy I am working on yet, I have seen it in action and it works. Shannon Campbell built the eintire rig. I have driven other rigs that werent as nice and thought out as this one and they ran off and left those rigs with leaves, especially in the rear. I do believe that leaves in the front can be made to work. I know Shannon sets up a lot of rigs with leaves in the front and 4 links in the rear. I have seen skinny's old rig haul major ass and jump also. His rig had dual shocks/leaves in the front and a four link in the back.

I just wish air shocks didnt fade out and heat up so fast...

 

[sled_dog]

My s10 will likely be leaf sprung front and fox coilovers out back. Why fox? I like to be different, and have never heard a single thing bad about Fox. Oh and the S10 will be a crawler but when I want to go out and play 10 minutes down the road and not 2 hours from here its gonna be speed and airtime. Billavista put it like this(sticks in my head since I read it), air shox are great for crawling, coilovers are great for crawling and when setup right feel like a dirtbike at speed." And thats exactly what I want.

 

[ntsqd]

[ QUOTE ]
Randy Ellis (TTC Winner, Master Fabricator,) built my suspension and was pretty clear about me not needing them [limiting straps].

[/ QUOTE ]

So what does it droop limit against?

Hopefully not the dampers themselves. When crawling that will probably be fine. When 'pre-running' that won't do at all. You'll hammer the compression stack against the seal body. Some dampers have an internal extension bumper, it's not intended to be the limit for the whole suspension just for the damper itself.

 

[PJTPW]

Just for some background, I'm looking at a 4000-4200 lb buggy on 42's. About 115" W.B.

I'm thinking with the additional weight, more vertical travel would be better. I'm using all of the 7" of uptravel in my front springs already, and after that everything would bottom out into something. Driveshaft into trans pan, drag link into frame, spring into steerting arm, etc.

I know I'll loose about 800-1000 pounds by going buggy and dropping back to a smaller, lighter, tire in the 42's. That may reduce the need for uptravel as my sprung weight will be substantially less.

I've been doing a lot of sand wheeling lately as there are several dune areas around my location, so for that stuff I would think more uptravel would do better.

I appreciate all the input, keep the info coming.

Ryan

 

[marv_springer]

Sand and Rocks are my passions.... in that order!

But they require 2 almost totally opposite setups. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

My main goal when I designed my FunBuggy (shown here almost running over Harley! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif was to merge these 2 capabilities.

As a whole, I've done it to my satisfaction. My FunBuggy does well in the rocks, respectable in the sand, and throws some nice lookin' roosters w/ 16.50 paddles on the back /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif!

But I think the most important thing for covering both of these bases would be to build some "adjustability" into your setup.

BTW.... I have no personal experience w/ coilovers. I have yet to shell out the $$ for a set. I will say that I rode in Juan's truck over some 3 ft whoops at about 45 mph - and I'm happy to say that we lived (even tho I had my doubts right before!).....

Marv

 

[PJTPW]

Paging Brandon. Assistance needed. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ryan

 

[miniwally]

Alright

The setup that is needed for hauling A$$ is way different than the setup needed to rockcrawl well. Shock valving and spring rates are completly different. We have been able to meet in the middle well enough for our needs though.
My front axle Center line is the center of the harmonic balencer. I built metal to metal stops for the axle to stop it 3/8" before it hits the harmonic balencer.
I am running the 14" travel shocks in front and 16" in the rear. I am set up pretty even for bump and droop travel. I think that in the future I am going to look into air bumps for the front for sure. I have blown through the poly bumpstops and hit the metal to metal stops a couple of time and I don't think my dentures can take that any more. The air bumps would probably help that problem a bunch.

You can't really go wrong with splitting the travel near equal for droop and stuff. Given what you want to do with the rig.

Ryan I PMed you my number call if you would like.