Sometimes Old Worn Out Engines....

[Fordum]

Are actually better.
Especially when you screw up.

After some personal debate, I decided to replace the transmission in my Snapper lawn tractor.
Its a gamble, since its fairly old, but the engine runs good, and it cuts really well.
Even without my bum leg, there is no way I would try to work on this thing on the ground.
Just too low.
So, I needed to get it up about eye level. Which means I need to pick up a couple hundred pounds of awkward lawn tractor and put in on a flatbed truck.
Which brings me to one of my favorite sayings.
"No problem, I own a boom truck".

As most of you probably know, its a 1966 F600 Ford. Rust holes everywhere.
The engine is a 330md big block FT engine. Probably has over 300K on it. The problem with a truck like this, is that unless you are doing roofing work, or sign work, it sits a lot.

Last time I cranked it, the rats had gnawed the plug wires off, and I put on a set that I found in the barn.
Had bare patches in them, but it cranked and ran.
That was about 3 months ago.

I had put the battery on charge some time ago, and it was hot. I put straps under the tractor, climbed in the cab and cranked her up.

It was running fine, I was standing on the control platform behind the cab swinging the boom over, raising it up and lowering the hook.
Hooked the hook to the straps, and was climbing back up to pick it up when I started realizing I was hearing a strange noise.

At first, I thought the horn was shorting out, but the horn was louder than that.
Then I figured maybe a bearing in the transmission was going out. It was in neutral, but the PTO was running for the hydraulics.

Climbed down, and saw what looked like smoke coming out from under the hood. And out through the holes.........

Like I say, lots of rust.....

I switched the engine off, but the noise kept getting louder.
Raised the hood, and discovered that the noise was the sound of steam shooting out the overflow pipe on the radiator.

Oh yeah, thats right. I checked the oil, but forgot about the water.........

I sprayed some water on the big radiator to condense the steam, but did not dare put any in.
Nothing for it, but I went in the house and waited for it to cool off. After a couple of hours, I went back out and filled the system. Took a lot of water.

Climbed back in the cab, hit the key, it cranked right up. No smoke, no knocking, running just fine.
I would have noticed the problem sooner, but there is about an 1/8 inch gap between the exhaust manifold and the engine, so its a little noisy.

With a new tight engine, I might have had some serious damage on my hands. Scuffed pistons, maybe seized.
This thing got hot!

But, with the clearances that old engine has in it, it probably just got more efficient while it was hot.

Considering that it had some kind of car radiator in it when I got it, before I put the big 4 core truck radiator in, I suspect that that was not the first time that engine had gotten that hot in its 46 years of running.

Got the mower on the back of the truck, got a copy of the parts manual on the computer so I can see what is going to have to come off to replace this thing, and I hope to start tearing it down tomorrow.

From what I can tell, I think I could change the transmission in my truck easier.

Seems like most of my stories make me out the genius hero, so I wanted to make sure to post one where I screwed up.

 

[rampage]

Surprised you don't have a remote controlled lawn mower. I'm working on building one. Get to play while you work.

 

[Fordum]

Surprised you don't have a remote controlled lawn mower. I'm working on building one. Get to play while you work.

Actually considered a couple of times. It would be doable at the house in PC.
Nice clean yards and straight runs.
Here at the farm, not so much.
Lots of trees, potholes, big limbs that fall, and the landscape changes too much.
One day there might be a nice smooth section of grass, the next there might be a big hole where an Armadillo or coyote dug something.
The main remote control project I am working on in my spare time right now, is a remote controlled .22 rifle with pan and tilt, bore-sighted video camera, and a remote trigger so that I can surprise that aforementioned coyote when he comes around in the yard again.

Heck, if it works, I may beef it up, mount my .270 on it, and put it next to the gate in my back fence.
I got some nice bucks coming in there during hunting season.

I could sit in my easy chair with a Coke, and my finger on the fire button.

Only do it once, but I would like to say I did it.

 

[rampage]

The main remote control project I am working on in my spare time right now, is a remote controlled .22 rifle with pan and tilt, bore-sighted video camera, and a remote trigger so that I can surprise that aforementioned coyote when he comes around in the yard again.

Heck, if it works, I may beef it up, mount my .270 on it, and put it next to the gate in my back fence.

I've considered the same project... But not for coyotes but thieves at my cabin. Afraid of the legalities though. Are you adapting a pan/tilt/zoom IP camera for that or starting from scratch?

 

[Fordum]

I've considered the same project... But not for coyotes but thieves at my cabin. Afraid of the legalities though. Are you adapting a pan/tilt/zoom IP camera for that or starting from scratch?

Mostly from scratch. IP cameras are nice, but I consider them overpriced for the most part.
I'm still analog for all my video stuff.

The pan and tilt mechanisms out there are even more overpriced it seems like. I saw one that cost over $300 and it did not have $50 worth of parts in it.

Since all my control is going to be local, I don't need the IP part. And the pan and tilt is just going to be two motors controlled by a joystick.
No logic or autonomous control.

I have not decided whether to go with a couple of RC servos, which have a lot of advantages, or a couple of surplus seltzans I have laying around.

 

[diesel4me]

I remember the day I bought a used fleetside bed from a guy I used to wait on at a parts store,who lived in a town near mine...he said "I have a truck that can lift the bed up,so your best bet would be to pull your junk one off at home with your engine crane,then drive to my place with bare frame rails......................one early saturday orning,I took off my junk bed,and stuck a pair of those "lollipop" tail lamps in some holes on my bumper so I'd have tail lamps and be road worthy ,so no cops would pull me over or get in a crash on my way to his place..........................................................................................................................................................................................................When I arrived at his place,I saw a 1962 GMC 2-1/2 ton truck (C-60?) that had a flatbed,and what looked like another similar length truck frame as it had,hinged to the rear of the flatbed,hooked to a gigantic winch...a genuine hillbilly "boom truck"...the bed I wanted to buy was already attached to the "hoist",sitting on the ground...the guy comes out and says "it'll take me a few minutes to get this thing started"..he goes in his barn,comes out with a battery,a gas can,and a screwdriver....he didn't have to open the hood--there wasn't any!...........................................................................................................................................................................................................I watched as he installed the battery and hooked the cables up,and he then poured some gas down the carb,of the 235 straight six,which I was surprised to see in such a huge rig..them he puts his hand over the carb,and jumps the starter solenoid with the screwdriver..the engine fired up after a few revolutions..I saw the valve cover jump around,it had no bolts in it!..and I also saw a puff of oily blue smoke come huffing out of the side of the block,just above the push rod covers--it had a wide crack,about 1/2" wide,in the #5 cylinder,a good 3" long,,and I saw the piston sliding up and down!......he smiled when he saw the expression on my face,and said "Its been that way since dad ran it bone dry hauling logs out of the woods about 10 years ago--I can run it about 15-20 minutes,before it'll seize--then I have to let it sit a good hour or so,then she'll fire right up again and repeat the cycle!--I haven't botherd putting water or coolant in it since the crack appeared!............................................................................................We used the truck to hoist up the bed,and I backed my truck under it,and we lowered it onto my frame rails,and plugged in the tail lamps,and I put 2 bolts in hastily,good enough to keep it on for the 10 mile ride home...all the way home I was thinking about that old 235,and how long it had been run that way,and despite being "wounded" so badly,it actually sounded pretty decent,it wasn't even skipping that badly,it just had that "whoosh-Whoosh" noise like when a spark plug is removed and you start an engine up....goes to show how tough those old GMC's were!..

 

[Deuling]

I remember the day I bought a used fleetside bed from a guy I used to wait on at a parts store,who lived in a town near mine...he said "I have a truck that can lift the bed up,so your best bet would be to pull your junk one off at home with your engine crane,then drive to my place with bare frame rails......................one early saturday orning,I took off my junk bed,and stuck a pair of those "lollipop" tail lamps in some holes on my bumper so I'd have tail lamps and be road worthy ,so no cops would pull me over or get in a crash on my way to his place..........................................................................................................................................................................................................When I arrived at his place,I saw a 1962 GMC 2-1/2 ton truck (C-60?) that had a flatbed,and what looked like another similar length truck frame as it had,hinged to the rear of the flatbed,hooked to a gigantic winch...a genuine hillbilly "boom truck"...the bed I wanted to buy was already attached to the "hoist",sitting on the ground...the guy comes out and says "it'll take me a few minutes to get this thing started"..he goes in his barn,comes out with a battery,a gas can,and a screwdriver....he didn't have to open the hood--there wasn't any!...........................................................................................................................................................................................................I watched as he installed the battery and hooked the cables up,and he then poured some gas down the carb,of the 235 straight six,which I was surprised to see in such a huge rig..them he puts his hand over the carb,and jumps the starter solenoid with the screwdriver..the engine fired up after a few revolutions..I saw the valve cover jump around,it had no bolts in it!..and I also saw a puff of oily blue smoke come huffing out of the side of the block,just above the push rod covers--it had a wide crack,about 1/2" wide,in the #5 cylinder,a good 3" long,,and I saw the piston sliding up and down!......he smiled when he saw the expression on my face,and said "Its been that way since dad ran it bone dry hauling logs out of the woods about 10 years ago--I can run it about 15-20 minutes,before it'll seize--then I have to let it sit a good hour or so,then she'll fire right up again and repeat the cycle!--I haven't botherd putting water or coolant in it since the crack appeared!............................................................................................We used the truck to hoist up the bed,and I backed my truck under it,and we lowered it onto my frame rails,and plugged in the tail lamps,and I put 2 bolts in hastily,good enough to keep it on for the 10 mile ride home...all the way home I was thinking about that old 235,and how long it had been run that way,and despite being "wounded" so badly,it actually sounded pretty decent,it wasn't even skipping that badly,it just had that "whoosh-Whoosh" noise like when a spark plug is removed and you start an engine up....goes to show how tough those old GMC's were!..

Thats awesome!

 

[imiceman44]

In 2001 when I came to the states, I went and bought a chevy Van with a 6.2 that had a knock.
The guy said it doesn't run, but I figured if I can get it to start and see what it sounds like.
We got it hooked up to the batteries and a charger and fired it up, it sounded pretty noisy, but sounded like only one bad cylinder, I decided to drive it home the 20 miles trip.
Well it went fine for 15 minutes then died and wouldn't start, so I towed it home.
The next I started it and it ran so I shut it off and started to check things, the oil was thick and black like tar, so I asked the guy when he changed the oil last, he said it's a diesel you're not supposed to change the oil.
So he owned it for 6 years pulling a 10k boat and NEVER changed the oil.
I changed the oil and ran it for a week, as long as it was under 15 minutes it was fine, after that it would seize and wouldn't turn over.
I pulled the pan and saw one rod with no bearing and a gap of 1/4"
I thought about putting the biggest oversize bearing and it wasn't even close, I would have needed to stack 2 of them to make it work.
I ended up scrapping that whole Van.

 

[Jester1]

And here I thought this thread would go south about old things with high mileage, bad bearings, leaky gaskets, and always smelling of gas, and the vehicles we drive.

 

[y5mgisi]

Good storys!

 

[80' 427]

I can honestly say since eating lunch at the local machine shop every day, that engines will run a long time "wrong". In fact you scratch your head for hours wondering how they did last so long.

 

[Fordum]

I worked for a few years over in Quincy Fl.

Now, this is going to sound wrong, but I honestly do not mean it that way. When I was there, the population was about 85% black.
And most of them were only one step removed from sharecroppers. And some of the greatest guys you can imagine.
Our production manager was about 60, not sure, he did not know how old he was himself.
Ran production, operated the equipment, did all kinds of complex stuff.
Could not read or write a word. Good friend of mine, bright guy.

But for the most part, the average income for the area ranged from "getting by" to "dirt poor".
So, this place pretty much defined the term " " Rigging........

About a week after I started there, I was walking into the plant when I heard a car coming down the street.
I heard it a long ways down the street.

I stopped to watch. Don't remember what kind of truck it was, but it sounded like there was a midget in the engine whamming on the block with a sledgehammer.
Had to be a main.
I walked on in, and told one of the guys that that guy would not go far.
He misunderstood. He said yeah, he works at that packing plant a couple of blocks down.
Said he must be running late, he usually went by earlier than this.
I said well he might make it.
He wanted to know why? I said because of that engine knock.
He just laughed.
Said that it had been doing that for almost a year now.

He said it did sound like it was almost time for another new bearing though.

I never saw him do it, but the story was that he had spun a bearing on one journal. Dropped the pan and replaced that one.
It wore out fairly quick.
Then, he supposedly replaced it with one he carved out of oak wood.......
Said it lasted almost 6 months.
Like I say, I never saw the engine torn down, or saw him replace it, but he drove that truck with a knock for another year that I know of.
And the knock did go fairly quiet from time to time and then slowly get louder.

I also was in a shop repairing a vending machine, and had to wait for the compressor to cool off.
Walked over and started watching some guys pulling the head off an engine still in the truck.
Got the head off, and there was a hairline crack about an inch long in the side of the cylinder wall about half way down.
I said, well, so much for that block.
They looked at me like I was nuts.
They put it back together, filled it with water and antifreeze, and poured in a can of Bars Leaks.
I knew the person who owned the truck, and I know for a fact that he drove that engine for another 4 years.

You would just not believe some of the things they managed to get by with over there.

 

[imiceman44]

I worked for a few years over in Quincy Fl.

Now, this is going to sound wrong, but I honestly do not mean it that way. When I was there, the population was about 85% black.
And most of them were only one step removed from sharecroppers. And some of the greatest guys you can imagine.
Our production manager was about 60, not sure, he did not know how old he was himself.
Ran production, operated the equipment, did all kinds of complex stuff.
Could not read or write a word. Good friend of mine, bright guy.

But for the most part, the average income for the area ranged from "getting by" to "dirt poor".
So, this place pretty much defined the term " " Rigging........

About a week after I started there, I was walking into the plant when I heard a car coming down the street.
I heard it a long ways down the street.

I stopped to watch. Don't remember what kind of truck it was, but it sounded like there was a midget in the engine whamming on the block with a sledgehammer.
Had to be a main.
I walked on in, and told one of the guys that that guy would not go far.
He misunderstood. He said yeah, he works at that packing plant a couple of blocks down.
Said he must be running late, he usually went by earlier than this.
I said well he might make it.
He wanted to know why? I said because of that engine knock.
He just laughed.
Said that it had been doing that for almost a year now.

He said it did sound like it was almost time for another new bearing though.

I never saw him do it, but the story was that he had spun a bearing on one journal. Dropped the pan and replaced that one.
It wore out fairly quick.
Then, he supposedly replaced it with one he carved out of oak wood.......
Said it lasted almost 6 months.
Like I say, I never saw the engine torn down, or saw him replace it, but he drove that truck with a knock for another year that I know of.
And the knock did go fairly quiet from time to time and then slowly get louder.

I also was in a shop repairing a vending machine, and had to wait for the compressor to cool off.
Walked over and started watching some guys pulling the head off an engine still in the truck.
Got the head off, and there was a hairline crack about an inch long in the side of the cylinder wall about half way down.
I said, well, so much for that block.
They looked at me like I was nuts.
They put it back together, filled it with water and antifreeze, and poured in a can of Bars Leaks.
I knew the person who owned the truck, and I know for a fact that he drove that engine for another 4 years.

You would just not believe some of the things they managed to get by with over there.

well wood bearing is new to me, but I have seen leather, and stacking bearings to get the thickness.
I have done my share of rigging as well whe I was living in Lebanon during the war.
If I had the time and patience, I could give you a run for your money with some of the stories.

 

[Fordum]

Believe it or not, this is before my time. But somewhere in the back of my mind, I want to think that some of the really old engines had wood bearings.
Probably not a model T, but maybe some of the older ones.

And wood, properly used will surprise you. And old guy who worked at a place I hung out in, used to work at a mine in south Africa, I think.
Said that there were these huge spool winches that lowered the miners and equipment down into the mine.
Held maybe a mile or so of cable.
Despite pouring water on them, the brake shoes that stopped them would wear out in a month or so.
One day, the replacements did not make it because the plane crashed.
They had to shut down production.
These were not shoes like car brake shoes, just big blocks of friction material pressed against the sides of the spool with hydraulic rams.

He was under pressure to get the miners back to work.
He did not actually say so, but I got the impression it was the 'pistol shot to the back of the head' kind of pressure.
He cut some thick blocks of oak from some timbers they had, and bolted them in place.
Said the first time they used them, they smoked so bad it covered the whole area. But, after they got a layer of carbon built up, they calmed down.

Said when he finally got out of there, they had been working for almost a year and were still looking good.

Aha, did some googling, and found several referances to wooden bearings. Not any for an IC engine, but some for steam engines, John Deere combines, and even lathes.
I know I saw an old disk harrow that had wooden bearings one time.
Supposedly the Deere used them up into the 1990s.
Of course, if you could afford it, you could use some of this.....

http://www.lignum-vitae.com/

 

[imiceman44]

Believe it or not, this is before my time. But somewhere in the back of my mind, I want to think that some of the really old engines had wood bearings.
Probably not a model T, but maybe some of the older ones.

And wood, properly used will surprise you. And old guy who worked at a place I hung out in, used to work at a mine in south Africa, I think.
Said that there were these huge spool winches that lowered the miners and equipment down into the mine.
Held maybe a mile or so of cable.
Despite pouring water on them, the brake shoes that stopped them would wear out in a month or so.
One day, the replacements did not make it because the plane crashed.
They had to shut down production.
These were not shoes like car brake shoes, just big blocks of friction material pressed against the sides of the spool with hydraulic rams.

He was under pressure to get the miners back to work.
He did not actually say so, but I got the impression it was the 'pistol shot to the back of the head' kind of pressure.
He cut some thick blocks of oak from some timbers they had, and bolted them in place.
Said the first time they used them, they smoked so bad it covered the whole area. But, after they got a layer of carbon built up, they calmed down.

Said when he finally got out of there, they had been working for almost a year and were still looking good.

Aha, did some googling, and found several referances to wooden bearings. Not any for an IC engine, but some for steam engines, John Deere combines, and even lathes.
I know I saw an old disk harrow that had wooden bearings one time.
Supposedly the Deere used them up into the 1990s.
Of course, if you could afford it, you could use some of this.....

http://www.lignum-vitae.com/

I know about this application, I was talking to an old timer about this and he told me some have been in use for 100 years and still going strong.

 

[diesel4me]

I have heard that the snowblower attachment on my old Sears Suburban tractor has wooden bearings to support the auger!..I haven't looked at it to see if thats true or not,but I wouldn't doubt it...I will use pillow block bearings when and if they ever fail ....................................................................................................They say pound for pound,wood is stronger than steel,and I believe it...look at old bridges made 100+ years ago,that still have freight tranis pounding over them daily......some of the hardwood pallets I cut up for firewood are "ironwood",my saw blades will throw sparks like I hit a nail often when cutting them...one peice I had about 4" square and 3 feet long,weighed 52 pounds!....I thought it was a hunk of granite when I picked it up!.....................................................................................................I was amazed at some of the old engines we used at the junkyard,in our yard trucks and ramp truck...one day the 390 in the '70 F350 ramp truck blew a rod thru the crankcase,and all we had left in the yard with a similar engine,was a 1963 Ford Galaxie wagon,that had a 390 with a 2 bbl carb...it had sat "forever" with the hood open,and no carb on it....we reluctantly yanked it out,and had to use a long crowbar on the flywheel teeth,to get it to turn over,after pulling out the spark plugs and dumping some marvel mystery oil in it...after ensuring none of the valves were stuck,we installed it--had to tow it down the street at 35 mph and pop the clutch to get it to start,after smoking 3 used starters to death and killing several batteries!..after it started,it sounded like it had no rod bearings,but to our delight,it started to get quieter after letting it run with the new oil and marvel mystery oil in it...we ran that thing for 6+ years and beat the snot out of it,often overheating it and using drain oil in the crankcase...despite the abuse,it still refused to die!....................................................................................................Another engine my co-worker used for his own car,was a 305 chevy we had in a 83 monte-carlo,that was in several other cars before it landed in that one ,it was THE last small block chevy in the yard we had that had potential to ever run again--but like that ford wagon,it sat there with the hood open for several years,with no intake manifold on it,and the valley was FULL of acorns,dead leaves,and muck--but we pulled it anyway,took off the oil pan,used a garden hose to flush out the crap,and threw it together using the parts off his blown up 327 he had in his car--.......................................................................................................we did the engine swap in one day,took us from 8 am till 6 pm,he drove the car in that morning knocking BAD,and we had the 305 in it by 6 pm,and he drove it home...said all the way home the lifters clattered like hell,but on the way to work the next day,they started to quiet down,and by the end of the week,it had no noises whatsoever,and the blue smoke coming out of the exhaust had almost completey vanished too..I figured that engine would have grenaded on his way home the first day,in fact,I stayed at the shop late,in case I ad to go tow it back in with the ramp truck--then he called and said "I MADE IT HOME!"....he beat that engine mercilessly for several months afterwards,all it had for faults was it liked to consume a quart of oil about every 500 miles!....Just about every engine we PAINTED pretty that ran sweet before we pulled it out,ended up blowing up or being a bad smoker.without fail--while the ones we had to "un-seize" with a pry bar often ran the best,especially if they were the rustiest greasiest peice of crap looking hunk of junk we had in the whole yard!....

 

[LansingGMGuy]

One of the stranger things I have seen was when working with my old man at the marina he owns. Guy came in with a 115hp Mercury outboard - one of the old "black tower of power" straight sixes. Claims that for the past couple summers, the engine just doesn't seem to have the same kind of power that he remembered it having. Didn't take us long to figure out why - once we pulled the cowl off we found cylinder #3 had thrown a rod and was about 50% of the way through cutting the block in half. You could stick your fist through the hole in the block. Just for fun, we fired it up and it ran great!! The rod had been slapping around so long that it hardly even rattled anymore. Now it was a 95.8hp 5 cylinder LOL

 

[noJeepshere]

The Rocky Reach dam on the Columbia River near Wenatchee uses that Lignum wood for the bearings in its huge impeller turbines. They've been there since the dam was built in the 30's, get serviced every 4 years and that's it.