CK5
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Steering ratios
- Thread starter Mastiff
- Start date
I ran out of time after a test run, but it felt much more like a modern vehicle with the new ratio. To make a normal 90 degree turn it takes less rotation, which is obvious, but I think it's pretty similar to what I have going on in my 2011 Jeep. I'll probably deal with my driveshafts and SYE before I go off-road, but my Jeep seems right off road with the tighter ratio.
I think you mentioned before, the possible downside of having less mechanical advantage if the pump goes out. At least it still has the big steering wheel.
Think of it this way though. If you had to replace the box in a new truck, would you consider a high ratio?
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Still satisfied with your box choice?
I'm throwing my chips down and claiming it's the torsion bar. I doubt that's something a rebuilder changes too. I've heard about those going bad, or even hearing about people playing with them to get more "power assist" out of a box. (cheap, bad alternative to hydro assist)
My 2wd box came from an automotive swap meet, already rebuilt from someone either locally doing it or someone reselling them. Dunno, I paid $100.
But this has been talked about with Mastiff's other thread. Straight draglink vs bent, steering arms, etc etc. I even think you were complaining about a twitch in the steering. Is this from the quicker ratio?
If you haven't seen my hydro assist video on Youtube yet, you will see exactly how my truck handles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SpY-nf3-fU
My 2wd box came from an automotive swap meet, already rebuilt from someone either locally doing it or someone reselling them. Dunno, I paid $100.
But this has been talked about with Mastiff's other thread. Straight draglink vs bent, steering arms, etc etc. I even think you were complaining about a twitch in the steering. Is this from the quicker ratio?
If you haven't seen my hydro assist video on Youtube yet, you will see exactly how my truck handles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SpY-nf3-fU
I'll toss in what little I have. Way Way back, around 1979 or so, I came across an article in a magazine about a custom steering box rebuilder. Don't remember all about it, not sure if he did custom ratios or not.
But he did do custom torsion bars.
You could order how much road feel you wanted.
It caught my attention because one of our service trucks had just suffered some kind of torsion bar failure.
It had a big frame walkway over the cab that stretched out to the front bumper that just seemed to hover over the windshield.
That, combined with the weird steering, made for a surreal driving experience. It felt like playing a video game.
When you turned the steering wheel, all you felt was the bearings in the column. The truck turned just fine, but it did not feel like you were doing the steering.
With the platform over the windshield, it felt like you were watching a monitor instead of looking through the windshield.
I wrote the rebuilder, and got a price list but never ordered a box. My truck had a lot of steering feedback, and got harder to steer when you were trying to maneuver at slow speed.
As to the steering ratios, the comment about lack of boost is a good point. My folks had a Lincoln Town Car many years ago, that had some really fast steering. It was a lot more nimble than you would expect from its size and weight.
It also had something that I personally loved. The horn was a rubber strip that ran all the way around the inside of the steering wheel.
To blow the horn, you just squeezed the wheel.
If someone pulled out in front of you, you pretty much blew the horn automatically.
But, this car had a problem with the electronic ignition module, and would go dead from time to time.
When it did, you really found out about the steering ratio. It was next to impossible to steer, and was completely impossible to steer without blowing the horn because you had to grip the wheel so hard.........
Still wish I could find one of those steering wheels though.
But he did do custom torsion bars.
You could order how much road feel you wanted.
It caught my attention because one of our service trucks had just suffered some kind of torsion bar failure.
It had a big frame walkway over the cab that stretched out to the front bumper that just seemed to hover over the windshield.
That, combined with the weird steering, made for a surreal driving experience. It felt like playing a video game.
When you turned the steering wheel, all you felt was the bearings in the column. The truck turned just fine, but it did not feel like you were doing the steering.
With the platform over the windshield, it felt like you were watching a monitor instead of looking through the windshield.
I wrote the rebuilder, and got a price list but never ordered a box. My truck had a lot of steering feedback, and got harder to steer when you were trying to maneuver at slow speed.
As to the steering ratios, the comment about lack of boost is a good point. My folks had a Lincoln Town Car many years ago, that had some really fast steering. It was a lot more nimble than you would expect from its size and weight.
It also had something that I personally loved. The horn was a rubber strip that ran all the way around the inside of the steering wheel.
To blow the horn, you just squeezed the wheel.
If someone pulled out in front of you, you pretty much blew the horn automatically.
But, this car had a problem with the electronic ignition module, and would go dead from time to time.
When it did, you really found out about the steering ratio. It was next to impossible to steer, and was completely impossible to steer without blowing the horn because you had to grip the wheel so hard.........
Still wish I could find one of those steering wheels though.
Well, started wondering, did some searching. Here are some links that seem interesting. Looks like there are several companies that do custom stuff including torsion bars.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/power-steering-103/
http://www.rockcrawler.com/tours/psc/index.asp
If I had to guess, this might be the guy in the article I read.
http://lee-powersteering.com/rebuild-misc.htm
And this company does some steering gear work.
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/motorsport-specific-products/offroad/steering-gears/chevy-g-m
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/power-steering-103/
http://www.rockcrawler.com/tours/psc/index.asp
If I had to guess, this might be the guy in the article I read.
http://lee-powersteering.com/rebuild-misc.htm
And this company does some steering gear work.
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/motorsport-specific-products/offroad/steering-gears/chevy-g-m
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Pretty interesting reads! Although i still cant figure out what would be best for me...
ccarley
1/2 ton status
Hmm, I too want to make my steering better. It feels like the axles are moving under my Suburban causing changes in direction, but that's not the case. It did feel better a few years ago, and after replacing a lot of stuff under the front, I'm about ready to replace the box itself, as I bet it's the torsion in the box...
I was considering a rebuilt replacement from Autozone, but if it's hit-or-miss that might be a bad idea. Maybe I should just pony up for a "new" box from one of the known bulders then?
Clay
I was considering a rebuilt replacement from Autozone, but if it's hit-or-miss that might be a bad idea. Maybe I should just pony up for a "new" box from one of the known bulders then?
Clay
Looking back at this thread and my emails I'm a little disappointed I can't say with certainty what I even have in my truck. Maybe I have a piece of paper from Benchworks laying around someplace that says 14:1 on it or something. That's why I like doing stuff electronically when I can instead of just talking on the phone.
Anyway, I haven't driven enough miles yet to give solid advice to anyone. And I'll forget how it used to be anyway. I've got all new components on the steering and it's still nothing like a modern vehicle for whatever subtle reasons. My wife's new Altima practically steers itself, returns to center instantly, turns on a dime, etc. The K5 is definitely tight (maybe too tight, I have another thread on that) though.
I'd really like to get the return to center to be better. It only goes about 75% of the way back. I think my caster is dialed in, not sure what else really controls that.
Anyway, I haven't driven enough miles yet to give solid advice to anyone. And I'll forget how it used to be anyway. I've got all new components on the steering and it's still nothing like a modern vehicle for whatever subtle reasons. My wife's new Altima practically steers itself, returns to center instantly, turns on a dime, etc. The K5 is definitely tight (maybe too tight, I have another thread on that) though.
I'd really like to get the return to center to be better. It only goes about 75% of the way back. I think my caster is dialed in, not sure what else really controls that.
There were MANY part numbers for torsion bars over the years. If you could find the right donor box, you could lighten up the steering feel by stealing that valve assembly. But most of these boxes look the same on the outside. If you knew what you were doing with the box, you could open it up, tear the valve down to get the T-bar, turn it down on a lathe a little and re-assemble. That valve can be a cruel assembly, though.
Some of those Lincolns from the late 70's/ early 80's had insanely light T-bars. You could quickly swing from stop to stop with your pinky. Almost no road feel, though - those cars were so heavy and lightly sprung it was like piloting a cloud.
Some of those Lincolns from the late 70's/ early 80's had insanely light T-bars. You could quickly swing from stop to stop with your pinky. Almost no road feel, though - those cars were so heavy and lightly sprung it was like piloting a cloud.
Dude, live with it. You are comparing apples to shovels now. If you wanted a modern driving vehicle for the street, you should have bought a modern vehicle for the street. But you didn't, you bought an old truck, with a mild steel thin wall frame, then you put on 35s, flexy front springs and a locker. What is this thing....a 1 ton locked, short wheelbase street truck?
I don't think you'll ever be happy, especially if you are bringing up Unibody cars as examples. MY TRUCK drives better than my fathers lifted '06 CCLB, even after new front end components. But that doesn't mater, cause I bought an off road truck and so did YOU.
After reading this last post, I have to discredit everything you've complained about thus far. If you have new bushings front and rear (though my rears are shot), new steering components, properly adjusted sector shaft, good wheel bearings at all corners, good Kingpin/ball joints, and quality sidewalls on your tires....... that's it, it wont get any better.
I have to agree with K85. And if you consider the amount tread that you have grabbing the road, I don't think you can get perfect return to center without too much caster. Maybe it can improve some, but I don't know. I just think there is a lot of tread scrubbing the road.
I don't expect it to drive like a new Altima, just trying to make it as good as I can. Unless I compare notes with guys on here, I don't know what to shoot for. I can see from what I wrote how it may look like I'm trying to match the Altima. I'm not, but a person's expectations do get calibrated differently by driving newer stuff. That's all I was getting at.
You know, an E-mail to one or more of the companies that do custom steering stuff might give some interesting info.
Some of these outfits have been doing this longer than some of the folks here have been alive.
Odds are they might have some suggestions.
A phone call would do more, but tie up their time with something that might not net them any business.
FWIW, my Ford with 12.50-33s and leaves front and rear, drives great and returns to center well with stock parts.
Of course, the frame is probably heavier than your 1/2 ton units, which might make a difference.
I'm running a Dana 44 ifs, while you are mostly running solid axles, not sure whether that helps or hurts.
Not trying to brag that mine is better than yours. My point is that the trucks are similar, and I have good steering.
I know that lots of you have modified to cross-over steering which I think is similar to mine.
Maybe we need to be looking as to what is different and why one works better than the other.
I would like to improve my system a little. For some reason the passenger side tie rod end coupling has wallowed out more than once.
Tie rod end would be fine, but where it couples to the other tie rod will get loose. I tighten the sleeve tight as it will go, but sooner or later the threads just get tired and the ends start moving in the sleeve.
Ford made two different size tie rod systems for my truck. I think the ambulance version or if I had the big block option, it would use larger tie rods.
I would love to change to them, but I have the same problem some of you with changing tie rod ends.
The tapered holes in the stronger knuckles are larger than mine. One of these days, I am going to get a reamer and convert to the stronger system like you folks have.
Some of these outfits have been doing this longer than some of the folks here have been alive.
Odds are they might have some suggestions.
A phone call would do more, but tie up their time with something that might not net them any business.
FWIW, my Ford with 12.50-33s and leaves front and rear, drives great and returns to center well with stock parts.
Of course, the frame is probably heavier than your 1/2 ton units, which might make a difference.
I'm running a Dana 44 ifs, while you are mostly running solid axles, not sure whether that helps or hurts.
Not trying to brag that mine is better than yours. My point is that the trucks are similar, and I have good steering.
I know that lots of you have modified to cross-over steering which I think is similar to mine.
Maybe we need to be looking as to what is different and why one works better than the other.
I would like to improve my system a little. For some reason the passenger side tie rod end coupling has wallowed out more than once.
Tie rod end would be fine, but where it couples to the other tie rod will get loose. I tighten the sleeve tight as it will go, but sooner or later the threads just get tired and the ends start moving in the sleeve.
Ford made two different size tie rod systems for my truck. I think the ambulance version or if I had the big block option, it would use larger tie rods.
I would love to change to them, but I have the same problem some of you with changing tie rod ends.
The tapered holes in the stronger knuckles are larger than mine. One of these days, I am going to get a reamer and convert to the stronger system like you folks have.
y5mgisi
1 ton status
It's too bad steering boxes are fairly complicated and fairly expensive. Cause they are fairly easy to change for a different one. It would be so awesome to try out several different variations on ratios and torsion bars to try to find the combo that's right for each individual.
I have a dream, that some day in the not too distant future, I'm going to do all of the following, and at the end of the day, my truck will drive as good as it possibly can.
New steering box from red head steering gear and go with their recommendation on torsion and ratio.
Weld on and bolt on frame braces from ord.
All knew ball joints/tie rod ends/drag link ends.
New sway bar bushings.
New Springs.
Cross over steering.
And a trac bar.
And shocks.
That should match close enough to a leaf spring ferd stupid duty which the ones I have driven of those, drive quite well in my book.
I have a dream, that some day in the not too distant future, I'm going to do all of the following, and at the end of the day, my truck will drive as good as it possibly can.
New steering box from red head steering gear and go with their recommendation on torsion and ratio.
Weld on and bolt on frame braces from ord.
All knew ball joints/tie rod ends/drag link ends.
New sway bar bushings.
New Springs.
Cross over steering.
And a trac bar.
And shocks.
That should match close enough to a leaf spring ferd stupid duty which the ones I have driven of those, drive quite well in my book.
