stock 350 starter vs mini starter

[wazzabie]

Are you running a mini starter? There is nothing wrong with the stock starter I have other then that it is so heavy. I installed a support brace which someone had taken off.

I'm thinking however that the mini starter would be just as good and better since it would be light weight. I'm still on the fence about swapping.

 

[1-ton]

The mini-high torque starters are "gear reduction" type starters. The factory GM starter you have pictured on the left is not. One thing GM did not do well in the early years was the starter motor. In about 1995 GM finally manufactured a "gear reduction" type starter. I run a mini-high torque on both my trucks 454 and 350 with no problems.

 

[diesel4me]

Be thankful you dont have a 6.2 diesel--those "direct drive" non gear reduction diesel starters weigh at least twice what a gas engine one does..it helps to be able to bench press 50 lbs with one arm,while lying on your back, if you try installing one of those ingots..been there and done that,at least 4 times...

 

[wazzabie]

Be thankful you dont have a 6.2 diesel--those "direct drive" non gear reduction diesel starters weigh at least twice what a gas engine one does..it helps to be able to bench press 50 lbs with one arm,while lying on your back, if you try installing one of those ingots..been there and done that,at least 4 times...

I've pulled the 350 mammoth sized starter off several times on my back and then benched pressed it back on with one hand. Always concerned about it dropping on my face.

 

[wazzabie]

The mini-high torque starters are "gear reduction" type starters. The factory GM starter you have pictured on the left is not. One thing GM did not do well in the early years was the starter motor. In about 1995 GM finally manufactured a "gear reduction" type starter. I run a mini-high torque on both my trucks 454 and 350 with no problems.

For a 1978 350 what model/ year mini gm starter would I need to pull from the junk yard or order?

 

[diesel4me]

I think my wrist on my right hand has never fully healed from the starter I mentioned dropping when my arm gave out after 30 or so seconds of holding it up one handed, while trying to get a bolt started--it pinned it right against the top side of the leaf spring....about 5 times,before I finally got one bolt started..

I put a reduction gear one off a 6.5 in it since--that one isn't as heavy,and spins it over better...still heavier than a hi-torque one off a gas engine though..

 

[1-ton]

For a 1978 350 what model/ year mini gm starter would I need to pull from the junk yard or order?

You will not be able to use a factory GM "gear reduction" starter for your older style engine block because the GM factory one had a newer style block off-set bolt pattern, and your older block is a straight across pattern.

 

[wazzabie]

You will not be able to use a factory GM "gear reduction" starter for your older style engine block because the GM factory one had a newer style block off-set bolt pattern, and your older block is a straight across pattern.

Is there any factory gm option to swap my 1978 350 starter? Is there a gm mini starter that is not gear reduction that would work?

 

[1-ton]

Is there any factory gm option to swap my 1978 350 starter? Is there a gm mini starter that is not gear reduction that would work?

Not that I am aware of. The OEM starter is just fine for most applications. The reason people go with mini-starters is for header clearance issues, high compression engine, or they just have the money to buy a better starter.

 

[6872xtc]

If your truck has a starter with the diagonal bolt pattern, you can use a factory style gear reduction starter.
You have to get shorter bolts, too. But that is not a problem.
I have gear reduction starters on everything but my '72 K5.
I like that they pull fewer amps while cranking, and no brace required due to the lighter weight.

 

[dyeager535]

You will not be able to use a factory GM "gear reduction" starter for your older style engine block because the GM factory one had a newer style block off-set bolt pattern, and your older block is a straight across pattern.

Are we talking LS-architecture engines, or the Gen1 small block up to 2002?

I thought all the Gen1's (ignoring whatever idiosyncrasies the first few years probably had) had both bolt patterns for the starter? Offset and straight across?

If I remember correctly, one pattern was for the small flywheel/flexplate (153 tooth) and the other was used with the 168 tooth setups.

I'm contemplating the swap as well (if my starter dies) but so far haven't seen the need to pay $100+ for a new mini-starter. A junkyard/used solution would be a decent option if the price was right IMO, but if it won't bolt up, then not an option I suppose.

 

[1-ton]

If your truck has a starter with the diagonal bolt pattern, you can use a factory style gear reduction starter.
You have to get shorter bolts, too. But that is not a problem.
I have gear reduction starters on everything but my '72 K5.
I like that they pull fewer amps while cranking, and no brace required due to the lighter weight.

One of the reasons I went to a mini starter was because all the OEM starters now are cheap Chines pieces of crapolla. I have Power Master mini-high torques I bought from jegs, which are American made, for a decent price.

 

[1-ton]

Are we talking LS-architecture engines, or the Gen1 small block up to 2002?

I thought all the Gen1's (ignoring whatever idiosyncrasies the first few years probably had) had both bolt patterns for the starter? Offset and straight across?

If I remember correctly, one pattern was for the small flywheel/flexplate (153 tooth) and the other was used with the 168 tooth setups.

I'm contemplating the swap as well (if my starter dies) but so far haven't seen the need to pay $100+ for a new mini-starter. A junkyard/used solution would be a decent option if the price was right IMO, but if it won't bolt up, then not an option I suppose.

You are absolutely correct that the late model GEN I blocks had 3 starter motor bolt holes to choose from, so you could bolt any starter to it, but the GM gear reduction starter itself did not give you that choice like the block did.

 

[diesel4me]

The "old school" small blocks (pre-vortec 1987 down) used a starter nose with the "straight across" bolt pattern if the engine had a 153 tooth flywheel--the staggered bolt pattern was used with the 168 tooth flywheels..

I have simply swapped the noses on stock GM starters if mine had the "other" bolt pattern..

I think I have seen mini gear reduction ones for both types available..

GM used a strange starter nose on the old trucks with cast iron bell housings and SM420 or SM465 4 speeds,that bolted into the bell housing with 3 bolts,none on the engine block were used..I doubt you can get a mini starter for those..

 

[6872xtc]

To the OP, find one off of a 'vortec small or big block, and it will work.
I took one off of a '99 454 to use on my '90 Jimmy.
The Power master stuff mostly uses a Mitsubishi motor, there are a few that use a Nippendenso motor. I like the Nippendenso ones since that's what is used by Cummins, Mitsubishi was on power-chokes....


If you stay with a factory direct drive, make sure that you get one with high torque windings.

 

[HankScorpio]

Are we talking LS-architecture engines, or the Gen1 small block up to 2002?

I thought all the Gen1's (ignoring whatever idiosyncrasies the first few years probably had) had both bolt patterns for the starter? Offset and straight across?

If I remember correctly, one pattern was for the small flywheel/flexplate (153 tooth) and the other was used with the 168 tooth setups.


I'm contemplating the swap as well (if my starter dies) but so far haven't seen the need to pay $100+ for a new mini-starter. A junkyard/used solution would be a decent option if the price was right IMO, but if it won't bolt up, then not an option I suppose.

The "old school" small blocks (pre-vortec 1987 down) used a starter nose with the "straight across" bolt pattern if the engine had a 153 tooth flywheel--the staggered bolt pattern was used with the 168 tooth flywheels..

I have simply swapped the noses on stock GM starters if mine had the "other" bolt pattern..

I think I have seen mini gear reduction ones for both types available..

GM used a strange starter nose on the old trucks with cast iron bell housings and SM420 or SM465 4 speeds,that bolted into the bell housing with 3 bolts,none on the engine block were used..I doubt you can get a mini starter for those..

I am researching starters right now and found this thread. I just did a manual swap on a 1990 blazer. It had a blown 700r4, and I swapped a sm 465 with all factory hydraulic parts. I seem to have not checked tooth count on the new flywheel vs the old flexplate. When I tried to put the stock starter in it wouldn't fit. I don't mind buying a new starter but what would the application be? Previous posts hint at 2 starter bolt patterns for the 153 tooth and the 168 tooth. I have the larger flywheel, how do I get the right starter found?

 

[6872xtc]

The factory stuff that fits the 168 tooth flywheel has 2 bolts with a diagonal pattern.
I find it odd that your original doesn't fit now....

 

[bp71k5]

The factory stuff that fits the 168 tooth flywheel has 2 bolts with a diagonal pattern.
I find it odd that your original doesn't fit now....

I've found a few places that say the starters with cast iron noses are required for manual transmissions because the aluminum nose starters only fit with automatics. The aluminum nose doesn't fit inside the bellhousing opening. Might be the problem?

 

[6872xtc]

I have only found that with the early bellhousings. The '72 K5 has one that HAS to use the cast iron nose. It bolts the starter to the bellhousing. My old '79 K30 had the aluminum nose, bolted to the block.
I parted an '85 K30 with the SM465 which had aluminum nose. So I wonder what's up????

 

[wazzabie]

Just an FYI - I've cracked an aluminum nose starter. The metal is like pot metal.