stock 454 vs. TBI 355

[Robert79K5]

What you don't realize is that a STOCK BBC is about twice as much as a stock 350 so they even each other out. My manual says 230 hp and 375 ft lbs for a carbed bbc and since gm takes their ratings at the back of the tranny its more like 410 ft lbs and 260 hp.

What is your price range?

Even tho a Big block makes anybody a hero I still think a hot smallblock would be easier and cheaper.

I have an observation that I havn't seen anyone point out yet. When discussing the cost of building a big vs. small block nobody considers reliability and longevity. A big block is physically larger and stronger than a small block. They were built with larger power outputs in mind. So lets say if you build a 400 HP small block and a 400 HP big block the small block is going to wear out and tear up quicker than the big block. The Big block has the potential to save you money and grief from not having to tear apart your broke engine, and that is worth a whole lot of clams to me.

I wish to also take the oppertunity to reitterate that a BB is just much cooler than a sb and thats worth sticking another pry bar in the ole wallet for if nothing else.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

... i've seen 350's with 300k on em and still have enough grunt to light up the rear wheels. Plus 4 bolt sb's are alot more common than 4 bolt bb's. While a big block might last longer than a small block in some cases there are about a hundred senarios where one would outlast the other and vica versa. The old Lt1 blocks are one of the most sought after blocks out there because of the high nickel content. More nickel means less wear. If you ask me, a BB and a SB should last about the same amount of time.

If you go with the 454 find a good tbi core from a junkyard, get it cleaned up and get some injectors matched.

 

[thor]

Just another observation.....

Dirtwarrior, how many bbc have you owned or built? You can't learn everything from a magazine...

 

[Ned Kelly]

Cad 500's have a high nickel content block. They are renowned for their longevity and usually show very little cylinder when torn down - why not get a 500cid? Hail to those that run big cubes!

 

[dirtwarrior17]

Just another observation.....

Dirtwarrior, how many bbc have you owned or built? You can't learn everything from a magazine...

One more observation.... how would you know if I've owned or built a bbc?

The answer is 1. But that doesn't matter... theres only one factor when it comes to wear, material of the cyclinder walls and pistons(assuming everything else is sound). I don't want to start this **** with you.... i posted my opinion.

I've never heard of a BB lasting longer than 300k.

 

[thor]

One more observation.... how would you know if I've owned or built a bbc?

I didn't that's why I asked relax, I was just curious, we're not starting anything here... Sorry i got under your skin.

I've never heard of a BB lasting longer than 300k.

Me either

 

[dirtwarrior17]

My bad.....

 

[Robert79K5]

But that doesn't matter... theres only one factor when it comes to wear, material of the cyclinder walls and pistons

Woah.... You really did say that didn't you......

Im sorry but there is a lot more to longevity than the nickle content of the engine block.


Allow me to reitterate my point for clarity... Big blocks are Physically larger and designed to handle larger power outputs. Sure you can get the same ammount of power out of a small block as a big block but it has to generate more power per cubic inches of displacement comparatively, and to do that you will be accelerating the ammount of wear on the engine.
Its an inverse proportion. The more power you make the less life your going to get out of the engine. You can make an engine that would last 300k miles last 100k miles simply by increasing the load past the engines design parameters.

dirtwarrior.... According to your logic all of those big-assed series 60 diesels that I rebuilt and put in semi trucks back in college could have been replaced with an engine the size of a small block chevy if they had just soupped it up enough and made it out of pure nickel and it would last just as long too.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

dude i don't want to argue with you so this is all im gonna say.... more hp doesn't mean less life. Period. More rpms does. Which is yet another reason diesels last longer than gas, but nobody said anything about diesels. Just because the motor is bigger doesn't mean it lasts longer. I have seen stock 350's last 300k and mild 350's last 300k. It really doesn't matter how much power you make as long as its naturally aspirated and you keep the oil changed and aren't revving to 10k. Ask the BBC owners how long their motor went before it needed a rebuild...Its the same as a sb.

you probably don't know that 2blt blocks, sb or bb, have both been tested and rated to handle 500 hp. I think you have a lot to learn about motors... thats all im going to say.

OH yeah.... HOw do NASCAR motors run constantly at 8k-9500 rpm for 500+ miles????? They nickel and titanium plate eveything.

 

[Jeromy Gibson]

BBC or SBC I would be happy to get 15K out of a stickly off road truck.

 

[Robert79K5]

dude i don't want to argue with you so this is all im gonna say....

Look I will put it as plainly as I possibly can for you because I genuinely think that if you wouldn't be so stubborn and just think about this for a minuet then you wouldn't have to embarass yourself so much.

The bigger the explosion the harder it pushes down on the piston, and the harder the piston rings are forced against the piston walls and the harder the piston rubs on the layer of oil on the piston wall. The harder the piston is pushed down the more stress is placed on the wrist pin, rod and main bearings and head gasket.

More power = more stress on the engine no matter what engine it is, no matter what the engine is made out of.

More stress on the engine = less engine longevity

Nascar engines run 500 miles then get rebuilt. They last those 500 miles at their high RPMs because they are well balanced and have very high grade componentry in addition to high nickel content in their blocks.

Do not even begain to presume to know the depth of my knowledge of engine theory. Rest assured I am sufficiently qualified.

Saying you have seen a small block go xbillion miles is a moot point by the way.

Saying that you don't want to argue with me and then immediately launching into a lengthy diatribe is just lame.

If my logic about the relationship of power to engine longevity is flawed then use logic to proove me wrong. Show me how to engineer a motor with main bearings the size of toothpics that will generate 500 HP and last one million miles.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

What you didn't understand is that was all im going to say......I could point out holes in your explosion theory and the rest of your argument but its pointless... I am not going to do this here....

[email protected]

 

[Jeromy Gibson]

Well the engine is in better shape than I thought for, there was two small nicks on the crank that caused the berring to go out on the #1 and 2. I am just going to get the crank turned and put new berrings and seals in it. I do have to come up with the Altinator and power sterring brackets, carb, and distributer. Maybe my 400 bucks will get me there. I hope. Also one quick question....I have an SM465, will the flywheel from the 350 work on the 454?

 

[diesel4me]

nope!

A 454 has an externally balanced flywheel(has counterweights cast into it)...its a loner,ONLY a 454 flywheel will work!!--a 350 one WILL bolt on,but the motor will shake off its mounts if you try ising it! -- DONT!..

I've heard about "universal" flywheels that come with the balance weight spearately,so one flywheel can be used on ALL gm V8's without having to stock a bunch of different ones..I think you can buy the couterweight separately from a speed shop.-never used one myself..

.I'd stick with the correct flywheel if it were me,I'm not a big fan of "universal" parts..They might only make flexplates for automatics that have the weight separate,I havent messed with any big blocks with manual trannys in many moons..the info I gave above applies to the "Old" Mark IV 454 up till 1986--ones after that I know squat about,if yours is newer,wait for another poster with more experience than I with later 454's to reply!..(those might not be externally balanced,etc)--

 

[dyeager535]

Ugh...

I wish people would stop propagating the high nickel block content myth.

That myth was apparently started by people that stand to gain superiority in the face of inferior engine designs. (Cadillac, Oldsmobile for two)

No one has EVER been able to produce any GM documents, or even aftermarket testing data of blocks, to indicate that certain engines or castings are indeed stronger (based on metal alloy) than any others.

I've looked at specs for aftermarket iron blocks, and don't once recall seeing anything relating to a superior alloy than what was used stock.

The problem with this is the simple fact that these myths are propagated solely by word of mouth. Someone comes up with something official, great, I and everyone else can learn and believe, but I heard it from so and so is ridiculous. I heard that some Chevy 350's had small main journals, therefore I have proof.

I can cite numerous examples of the same "superior alloy" myth, as well as numerous myths about castings that supposedly exist, but no one has any proof. If things were made, there is proof. I've heard the superior alloy (nickel) myth for various engine brands, as long as I've been to car sites on the internet. That's at least 5 years with no actual proof.

 

[blazinzuk]

Everything on here kinda makes me laugh. How about using a bypass filter to make your enging last longer or a preoiler. I just have to say one thing. Power and relability are not mutally exculusive to a point. When you have more power you tend to want to use it, my sbc in my blazer never gets abused why because it is no fun, a gutless wonder doesn't even begin to describe it. I think oil and air filtration and driving style influence longevity more than anything else said here.

 

[dyeager535]

Yes. I know plenty of people that easily exceed 100K miles on their engines with no problem, then I see other people absolutely beating their newer econo-box sedans with the tailpipe smoking like a chimney from burning oil, or running rich, etc. I wonder why it runs so bad??

I think you'll start seeing engine longevity decline, the more I watch people drive, the more I realize people no longer realize what "steady throttle pressure" means. Along with racing to the next stoplight, or bumper in traffic, etc.

But that's driving style, maintenance and so on, not physical construction of the engines. Which lasts longer? A 350 run at 7200RPM for 40 or so 1/4 mile laps a weekend, or a daily driver, driven sanely?

 

[dirtwarrior17]

I learned about nickel content when i built my dirtbike motor. It is a known FACT that nickel wears slower and resists rust better. When the military came out with the AR-15 it had steel barrels and mechanisms. During vietnam thousands of soldiers died becuase their gun was jamming and rusting out. What did they do to fix it? NICKEL plate it. We have been using that same gun(now called the m-16) for about 30 years.

As for motors, I never said i heard this from so and so... i found out from doing research on blocks for my truck and cylinders for my bike. Yamaha and many other manufacturers will tell you themselves that the nickel cylinder will last longer then most any other cylinder on the market.

gm doesn't need to give info to prove it when dozens of other companies whether auto or non auto already have.

Like i already said, nascar nickel, and titanium plates just about everything in their motors. It's a well known fact those motors take more abuse then anybody thought possible. sustained 8k+ rpm for up to 600 miles. yeah they get rebuilt after every race but pull the nickel and titanium plated parts out and see how long they last.

 

[dyeager535]

You found your info from Yamaha from the manufacturer, Yamaha. Find the same info from GM, about their blocks, not someone that says it. Manufacturers use anything possible to tout how much better their products are than the next guys, and if their nickel content was better/above what was necessary for minimum longevity, then you bet they'd market it.

We aren't talking about which metals perform better. We are talking about a manufacturer that will save $.01 on each vehicle they produce if they can, not one that will dump money into a vehicle that isn't necessary, then proceed to NOT market it in some way.

Please don't compare race technology to stuff that isn't in production motors yet. Lots of stuff crosses, but until it is commonplace on $15,000 standard production vehicles, it isn't fair to even try and compare, since we are talking about what the block content really is, not what NASCAR does, or what people think the block content is.

I have no doubt GM blocks have nickel in them. Prove that one has more than any other. That is the question, and the only reason the high nickel myth (in chev motors, but don't you know that Oldsmobile motors are a superior alloy than Chev's? ) apparently exists is because of the 010/020 cast-in numbers present on some Chev blocks, which apparently everyone wants to define/guess/speculate wildly what those mean, without having a clue.

 

[dirtwarrior17]

Why would they market a motor (lt1) that they don't even make anymore?

I was talking about the lt1 block having more nickel content. This is something many engine builders would agree on. Why do you think you get a higher core charge for the lt1 blocks?

As for NASCAR.... there isn't alot of crosses. They use nickel and titanium because they are superior. For some reason you think nickel is no better than iron. Don't you think if nickel wasn't superior NASCAR, the military, dirtbikes, etc, would use pure iron instead? That glass like feel that the cylinders get after being broke in has a lot to do with nickel. Nickel is harder, more rust resistant, and more slippery than iron.

I've looked at specs for aftermarket iron blocks, and don't once recall seeing anything relating to a superior alloy than what was used stock.

If a company like world or dart finds an alloy or alloy combination to be superior do you think they are going to share it with their competition?