JungleBoy
1/2 ton status
Converting to rear discs on 14 bolt ff. Pros/cons for e-brake on TC vs. using Caddy calipers?
Thanks in advance
JB
Thanks in advance
JB
CK5
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TC E-brake vs. Caddy Calipers?
- Thread starter JungleBoy
- Start date
The one big con of the TC brake system is that it will take whatever your ratio in the axle is times the strength it would if the brake were just at the wheels.
What I mean is, if you have 3.73 gears in your diff's, then if the brake were at the wheels it would be a 1:1 ratio for stopping. If its at the Tcase then it would take 3.73 revolutions at your TC mounted brake to equal 1 revolution at the wheel, making it work harder and use up the pads faster. course thats in an emergency stop situation which is pretty rare.
Also you lose 50% of your physical brakes with the Tcase solution, vs both rear wheels in the other fashion.
Id like to hear some stories of how it worked out for people with the Tcase brake setup. Perhaps I'm totally wrong but thats how I figured it.
What I mean is, if you have 3.73 gears in your diff's, then if the brake were at the wheels it would be a 1:1 ratio for stopping. If its at the Tcase then it would take 3.73 revolutions at your TC mounted brake to equal 1 revolution at the wheel, making it work harder and use up the pads faster. course thats in an emergency stop situation which is pretty rare.
Also you lose 50% of your physical brakes with the Tcase solution, vs both rear wheels in the other fashion.
Id like to hear some stories of how it worked out for people with the Tcase brake setup. Perhaps I'm totally wrong but thats how I figured it.
ok just analyzed that with the help of a mechanical engineer. I was the exact opposite of how it works. So just think the opposite when you read my description and thats how it works /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
T-case breaks are nice on high traction surfaces. Technically on a slippery slope or mud, etc. one wheel could turn one direction (say backwards if the vehicle was moving backward) and the other wheel turn the other direction (skidding) all while the t-case break is working fine and holding the driveshaft still. (Could also happen if using it for a panic stop......although I don't know why unless failure of the regular brakes). That being said, it can be used as a parking brake effectively on asphalt, but I wouldn't trust it on a slippery slope. Again the chances of the above happening are slim......it could happen, where as a regular parking brake would not allow that to happen as it locks both wheels. All that being said, I have heard the Eldorado calipers not working that well, so a t-case break might be the lessor (i.e. better) of the two evils.
The El Dorado calipers seem to be kind of despised by car owners that don't use the e-brake regularly. I haven't looked at mine closely yet, but I know that the e-brake needs to be used to keep the brakes "tight" for normal operation.
I had heard that they weren't "floating" either, but the ones I pulled off ('82 Eldo) were on the same type of pin setup as front calipers, so I'm not too sure about that. I didn't have time to analyze them, I just grabbed them before it got dark.
I had heard that they weren't "floating" either, but the ones I pulled off ('82 Eldo) were on the same type of pin setup as front calipers, so I'm not too sure about that. I didn't have time to analyze them, I just grabbed them before it got dark.
Triaged
1/2 ton status
If the slops was slippery enough for one tire to spin backwards and one spin forwards I don't think you could park your truck on it no matter which brake you had. Also if you are parking it on a slick hill you should be in 4wd (isn't that the point) and so you would have the front wheels locked too!
I don't have to worry about any of that because I have a welded diff (which I might change out for a spool or Detroit sometime).
On the panic stop w/ no hyd. brakes would you ease into the e-brake (in which case the t-case e-brake would get hotter than the caddy setup but I still don't think it would get hot enough to quit working) or give it all you got locking up the tires and praying for the best?
I happen to think the t-case e-brake is the best bet which is why i bought one!
Note: See my post in the 1st gen section.
I don't have to worry about any of that because I have a welded diff (which I might change out for a spool or Detroit sometime).
On the panic stop w/ no hyd. brakes would you ease into the e-brake (in which case the t-case e-brake would get hotter than the caddy setup but I still don't think it would get hot enough to quit working) or give it all you got locking up the tires and praying for the best?
I happen to think the t-case e-brake is the best bet which is why i bought one!
Note: See my post in the 1st gen section.
How much more extrenal or added pressure are you exerting on the yokes and ujoints with a brake system of this configuration? Another way to put it. I know that the pressure of braking from the wheels is passed into the rotors and drums. Now where does it go for the tcase style?
Blazinaire
1/2 ton status
I'm no expert, but what if you break an axle shaft, u-joint, driveshaft, ring or pinion, or something before the wheel? Then the T-case e-brake would be useless right? The T-case e-brake seems like the equivalent of putting the trans in park.
It is essentially.
If you have a wheel lose traction and you dont have a locker then guess what, you start rolling.
If you have a wheel lose traction and you dont have a locker then guess what, you start rolling.
Triaged
1/2 ton status
When you put on the t-case e-brake you also put on a 1-ton CV-drive shaft. I really don't see that going out. I also upgraded from a 12B to a 14FF when I did all this. I don't think I have to worry about that much either.
What I was looking for was redundancy and holding power in the breaking department. I think the best thing for holding power would be line-locks...but they don't work when you loose your hyd. brakes. This is why you need a mechanical e-brake. Drum e-brakes only hold well if the truck is pointed down the hill (what if you want to stop while going up hill and have a manual trans?). The caddy brakes don't hold well at all (from people I have talked to who had them) and hold less and less the bigger tire you have. A t-case e-brake would hold the same w/ bigger tire assuming you changed the gears too (like you should).
If I lost my drive shaft and my hyd. brakes I would be SOL anyways! But that is 2 things that have to go out! What would happen it you lost your hyd. brakes and your e-brake cable snapped?…Same thing!…SOL!
The point is redundancy! If one system goes out I have a backup. If 2 go out I’m SOL.
What I was looking for was redundancy and holding power in the breaking department. I think the best thing for holding power would be line-locks...but they don't work when you loose your hyd. brakes. This is why you need a mechanical e-brake. Drum e-brakes only hold well if the truck is pointed down the hill (what if you want to stop while going up hill and have a manual trans?). The caddy brakes don't hold well at all (from people I have talked to who had them) and hold less and less the bigger tire you have. A t-case e-brake would hold the same w/ bigger tire assuming you changed the gears too (like you should).
If I lost my drive shaft and my hyd. brakes I would be SOL anyways! But that is 2 things that have to go out! What would happen it you lost your hyd. brakes and your e-brake cable snapped?…Same thing!…SOL!
The point is redundancy! If one system goes out I have a backup. If 2 go out I’m SOL.
T/C e-brake has very small brake pads.
Caddy e-brake has very large brake pads.
T/C e-brake is only one caliper
Caddy e-brake is two calipers
T/C e-brake cable fails you have no back-up
Caddy e-brake cable fails you have another back-up
T/C e-brake has a small rotor which spins fast and takes more effort and longer time to stop
Caddy e-brake has a large rotor which spins slower and takes less effort and less time to stop
Caddy e-brake has very large brake pads.
T/C e-brake is only one caliper
Caddy e-brake is two calipers
T/C e-brake cable fails you have no back-up
Caddy e-brake cable fails you have another back-up
T/C e-brake has a small rotor which spins fast and takes more effort and longer time to stop
Caddy e-brake has a large rotor which spins slower and takes less effort and less time to stop
Chris Demartini
1/2 ton status
<font color=blue>What does rotor speed have to do with a parking brake? The t case brake is only used to hold the vehicle once its at a stop, it's not a service brake that is used to stop the vehicle. And why would anyone have rear disks and a t case parking brake with an open rear?
Seventy4Blazer
3/4 ton status
i also am doing the same. some folks here say that the TC setup is bad. i do not have any experience in the TC brakes. but i do have experience on a UH-1N huey. they run the same type of setup to stop the blades. the only diference is they use 2 pistons and pucks. the caddy callipers are bigger, but i dont think they apply the preasure needed to hold a truck. i feel that when i decide to worry about a e-brake i will go with the TC style.
grant
grant
Rotor speed has nothing to do with a parking brake, but it has a lot to do with an e-brake. I never once in my reply said anything about a parking brake. Your e-brake should be a dual purpose item, to use when parked on an incline and also as a secondary means to slow or stop the vehicle should the hydraulic brakes fail. In the state of California it is mandatory that you have a working e-brake that is mechanically actuated. What does an open carrier have to do with anything? A open carrier has no effect on your e-brake at all.
arveetek
1/2 ton status
Many larger trucks such as 2 tons, school buses, and motorhomes, use driveline brakes mounted behind the transmission, same as the TC brake.
I have a school bus that I use in my business, it has only the transmission brake. It holds much better than any rear wheel brake, because you have many more times holding power. In other words, the rear wheels have to spin the parking brake rotor or drum several times faster than the rotor or drum on the rear wheels, whatever the gear ratio is on that axle.
A lot of motorhomes don't have a park pawl in the tranny, they have an automatic brake built onto the back of the transmission. When you place the tranny into "Park," it automatically sets the brake. There are no other emergency or parking brakes.
It does make a difference if you are talking about emergency brakes, or parking brakes. I think emergency brakes are a mis-nomer. I've never owned a vehicle where the "emergency brake" did any good at road speeds. I can slam down on the pedal, and you just feel a slight drag. Parking brake is a better term.
Just thought I'd pass this along. The driveline brakes work well on the heavy duty trucks, so why not ours?
Casey
I have a school bus that I use in my business, it has only the transmission brake. It holds much better than any rear wheel brake, because you have many more times holding power. In other words, the rear wheels have to spin the parking brake rotor or drum several times faster than the rotor or drum on the rear wheels, whatever the gear ratio is on that axle.
A lot of motorhomes don't have a park pawl in the tranny, they have an automatic brake built onto the back of the transmission. When you place the tranny into "Park," it automatically sets the brake. There are no other emergency or parking brakes.
It does make a difference if you are talking about emergency brakes, or parking brakes. I think emergency brakes are a mis-nomer. I've never owned a vehicle where the "emergency brake" did any good at road speeds. I can slam down on the pedal, and you just feel a slight drag. Parking brake is a better term.
Just thought I'd pass this along. The driveline brakes work well on the heavy duty trucks, so why not ours?
Casey
For the most part I agree but...
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
It does make a difference if you are talking about emergency brakes, or parking brakes. I think emergency brakes are a mis-nomer. I've never owned a vehicle where the "emergency brake" did any good at road speeds. I can slam down on the pedal, and you just feel a slight drag. Parking brake is a better term.
<hr></blockquote>
All my parking brakes, whether foot or hand operated, on a car or on a truck worked well enough to stop a vehicle at speed (or pitch it sideways as a secondary steering wheel /forums/images/icons/smile.gif..........but that's another story). When a parking brake is working correctly (properly adjusted and in good working order) it should be able to stop a vehicle at speed. It won't stop it as quickly or smoothly (no ABS), but it should stop it in case of a hydraulic problem (master cylinder dies, blown out line, etc.).
If yours won't stop you, I would suggest replacing the cable with a new one and adjust the parking brake. The only thing I dislike about drum parking brakes is that by the nature of their design (in most apps) they only actuate one brake shoe (per side) which gives it better holding in one direction (usually against forward momentum), than the other. That is why you can back up with the parking brake on, but stops you when you try going forward. Disc parking brakes and t-case brakes work well in either direction.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
It does make a difference if you are talking about emergency brakes, or parking brakes. I think emergency brakes are a mis-nomer. I've never owned a vehicle where the "emergency brake" did any good at road speeds. I can slam down on the pedal, and you just feel a slight drag. Parking brake is a better term.
<hr></blockquote>
All my parking brakes, whether foot or hand operated, on a car or on a truck worked well enough to stop a vehicle at speed (or pitch it sideways as a secondary steering wheel /forums/images/icons/smile.gif..........but that's another story). When a parking brake is working correctly (properly adjusted and in good working order) it should be able to stop a vehicle at speed. It won't stop it as quickly or smoothly (no ABS), but it should stop it in case of a hydraulic problem (master cylinder dies, blown out line, etc.).
If yours won't stop you, I would suggest replacing the cable with a new one and adjust the parking brake. The only thing I dislike about drum parking brakes is that by the nature of their design (in most apps) they only actuate one brake shoe (per side) which gives it better holding in one direction (usually against forward momentum), than the other. That is why you can back up with the parking brake on, but stops you when you try going forward. Disc parking brakes and t-case brakes work well in either direction.
"What does an open carrier have to do with anything? A open carrier has no effect on your e-brake at all. "
An open carrier with the Tcase style brake will render the brake useless should a tire be lifted or lose traction in any way.
Who has a tcase brake and rear discs with an open carrier? I dont know, but I'll guarantee someone will go through all the trouble and money for some upgrades and still not have locked diffs.
An open carrier with the Tcase style brake will render the brake useless should a tire be lifted or lose traction in any way.
Who has a tcase brake and rear discs with an open carrier? I dont know, but I'll guarantee someone will go through all the trouble and money for some upgrades and still not have locked diffs.
