the crossmember you guys sell

[F-ingrob]

im changing the motor in my 87 K5 and im thinking its a great time to do something with the crossmember but im also wanting to add a track bar (pan hard bar) so im looking at yours and TNA's althogh yours does not come with a mount for the track bar as part of it i could still just put one on the frame cant I
theirs comes with one but you have a better price and it also looks better (pro built) do you guys also sell track bar mounts for the front

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Our crossmember doesn't have a provision for a track bar. We can build the bar itself but we don't have explicit brackets for a track bar.

 

[j20m715]

I've got both & can say TNA's crossmembers quality is just as good as ords if not better.
Two different build styles, that's all.
Ord gives me their opinion that you don't NEED a track bar on our trucks.
I feel they do, especially when you run THEIR crossover steering.
Look at every factory solid axle truck with crossover steering, they have track bars !
Yes I know you can install hydro assist but still want a tighter steering.
Not trying to bash ord (I have a LOT of their products on multiple trucks.
I like the track bar option TNA offers, & is WILLING to make & SELL.

That's my 2 cents !

 

[skunked]

I disagree, track bars are NOT needed on leaf spring solid axle trucks built correctly.

 

[j20m715]

So your saying every jeep & super duty with leaves is built incorrectly ?

 

[skunked]

So your saying every jeep & super duty with leaves is built incorrectly ?

For the local mall crawler with limited travel it's fine, so yeah a stock heep or Ferd would fall under that category. Trackbars and leafs with any decent suspension travel do not work well together. Maybe that's why ORD doesn't offer it

 

[Phil513]

I have a rough time wrapping my head around a track bar. It moves in an arc, right? And leaves go pretty much straight up and down.

I know I'm a n00b, and feel I must be missing something, but when I try to figure it out, my head assplodes.

 

[j20m715]

Well I guess my truck is a mall crawler, I don't want to drive a "slinky" down the road !
This isn't a dedicated trail truck, it will prob be on the road 75-80% of the time & steering is near the top of the list for me.
If I was after high flex, it wouldn't be on leaf springs.

 

[skunked]

Well I guess my truck is a mall crawler, I don't want to drive a "slinky" down the road !
This isn't a dedicated trail truck, it will prob be on the road 75-80% of the time & steering is near the top of the list for me.
If I was after high flex, it wouldn't be on leaf springs.

If the panhard is correcting your steering you have other issues and the panhard is your bandaid.

 

[j20m715]

If the panhard is correcting your steering you have other issues and the panhard is your bandaid.

I disagree IF your talking about an old square body Chevy.
STOCK the push pull steering is working with the springs.
When you do crossover you are asking the leaf springs do something they weren't designed to do (stop side to side movement) when pushing sideways on the springs.
I had an F350 with 6in national springs built for it.
It came with a track bar from the factory
When we put the springs on & before reinstalling the track bar, I had to move my truck out of the shop to work on another truck. My truck was unsteerable without the track bar.
As I said earlier I know you can correct a lot of that with hydro assist, but I'm not putting that on there at this time.
I am running 6in springs on the frt & don't need or want a lot of travel.
I have detroits frt & rear.
This isn't a rock crawler it's mainly a street driven truck with mild trails in mind. If I wanted an all out trail rig I would build a buggy.

 

[Phil513]

I disagree IF your talking about an old square body Chevy.
STOCK the push pull steering is working with the springs.
When you do crossover you are asking the leaf springs do something they weren't designed to do (stop side to side movement) when pushing sideways on the springs.

From my frame of thinking, the stock push pull doesn't exactly work with the springs. It's still an arc, and a really short one at that, which affects the steering more dramatically. Crossover makes a long arc, which is, although still a compromise, at least better. Either way, it's not directly attached to the springs, pulling them back and forth.

But I freely admit, I have a lot to learn.

 

[j20m715]

From my frame of thinking, the stock push pull doesn't exactly work with the springs. It's still an arc, and a really short one at that, which affects the steering more dramatically. Crossover makes a long arc, which is, although still a compromise, at least better. Either way, it's not directly attached to the springs, pulling them back and forth.

But I freely admit, I have a lot to learn.

I totally agree neither is perfect.
What I was trying to say is with the push pull the springs hold the axle in place (frt to back)
When you install crossover & remove the sway bar, your pushing sideways on the springs leaving the spring bushings to control the side to side movement of the axle.
Example truck is sitting stationary in the driveway, running, you turn the steering wheel, crossover is trying to turn the knuckles but with the weight of the vehicle it's pushing the springs sideways, which causes the trucks frame & body to push or twist up or down depending on which way you steer.
I'm just having a hard time explaining clearly.

If the springs where flat or straight it wouldn't be as noticeable but with the more arch you have the more movement (side to side) you will have.

Again I'm not bashing ord they do sell great products, I have many of them.
I just know with crossover steering & not having hydro assist I NEED a track bar for my truck to steer the way I want it to.

 

[skunked]

I would focus on the issues causing the excessive side to side axle movement before adding a trackbar.I still don't believe a trackbar is necessary with a crossover setup on a square. However if you're running a 12" lift with 8" shackles I can imagine the problems that would cause.

For myself, I've never had an issue tracking down the highway or down a bumpy road without a trackbar or hydro assist with lockers front and rear (not that it matters).

Furthermore, your experiences with a ford are not surprising, they built the truck with a trackbar after all right?

 

[j20m715]

I would focus on the issues causing the excessive side to side axle movement before adding a trackbar.I still don't believe a trackbar is necessary with a crossover setup on a square. However if you're running a 12" lift with 8" shackles I can imagine the problems that would cause.

For myself, I've never had an issue tracking down the highway or down a bumpy road without a trackbar or hydro assist with lockers front and rear (not that it matters).

Furthermore, your experiences with a ford are not surprising, they built the truck with a trackbar after all right?

Truck is an 86m1028 (k30)
Frt suspension
New 6in springs HD (high spring rate)
New spring bushings
New ord fush kit
New ord shackles
All greaseable
New ord extended frt brake lines
Rebuilt ported psc box 2wd
Ord bolt on steering brace
New pitman arm (from ord)
New ord crossover steering
New ord high steer
Frt axle Dana 60
Ord big block engine crossmember
Ord motor mounts
Engine (shouldn't matter) mpfi 350

Condition = very sloppy steering

Box is tight, all ends are tight
Truck "squirms" when any steering corrections are made !

This is a very mild built "mall crawler"
I am NOT after a lot of flex, I'm actually looking for a nice firm ride (no sway)
Mostly street some mild wheeling & dare I say a little mud.

Rear suspension (if it matters)
New ord extended brake hose
New 2 & 1/2in lift 56's
New 4in ord shackle flip
New ord zero rate 1in back to center rear axle in wheel well.

Again condition is VERY sloppy steering.

I'm open to suggestions.
I don't claim to know it all or a lot for that matter, I just want my truck to steer nice.

Edit: forgot to mention frt wheel hub bearings are good (no slop).

And to the mods since I have highly hijacked this thread would someone please move this to the appropriate section ?

Thanks

 

[Phil513]

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to start a kerfuffle.. I have been trying to figure out how panhard/trackbar stuff with leaf spring front suspensions work for a bit now. It seems to fight itself.

 

[skunked]

Truck is an 86m1028 (k30)
Frt suspension
New 6in springs HD (high spring rate)
New spring bushings
New ord fush kit
New ord shackles
All greaseable
New ord extended frt brake lines
Rebuilt ported psc box 2wd
Ord bolt on steering brace
New pitman arm (from ord)
New ord crossover steering
New ord high steer
Frt axle Dana 60
Ord big block engine crossmember
Ord motor mounts
Engine (shouldn't matter) mpfi 350

Condition = very sloppy steering

Box is tight, all ends are tight
Truck "squirms" when any steering corrections are made !

This is a very mild built "mall crawler"
I am NOT after a lot of flex, I'm actually looking for a nice firm ride (no sway)
Mostly street some mild wheeling & dare I say a little mud.

Rear suspension (if it matters)
New ord extended brake hose
New 2 & 1/2in lift 56's
New 4in ord shackle flip
New ord zero rate 1in back to center rear axle in wheel well.

Again condition is VERY sloppy steering.

I'm open to suggestions.
I don't claim to know it all or a lot for that matter, I just want my truck to steer nice.

Edit: forgot to mention frt wheel hub bearings are good (no slop).

And to the mods since I have highly hijacked this thread would someone please move this to the appropriate section ?

Thanks

Nice pile of parts

Where is your caster angle set? Psc rebuilt box? Rebuilt by whom? Still running a rag joint? A GoPro set under the truck may shed some light on the problem.

 

[ChrisPerry]

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to start a kerfuffle.. I have been trying to figure out how panhard/trackbar stuff with leaf spring front suspensions work for a bit now. It seems to fight itself.

I think a panhard is best for limited travel (think jacked up, stiff suspension).
Now if you make it as close as possible to the same length and at the same angle as the drag link, it would make for a well steering system. Until it wore out all the bushings, which it would do at an accelerated rate.

 

[Stephen]

So, the deal with a panhard bar and leaf springs is this: It kind of works. Lots of people are kind of right here and that's part of the problem, the problem is fuzzy and so is the solution.
Strictly speaking, a panhad and leaves does not work. Leaf springs move straight up and down and the panhard forces the axle side to side. If there were heims in all the pivot points, a leaf suspension with a panhard would not move. So, for it to work, you are playing around with the compliance of the joints/bushings.
Here's another point to make before we get much farther: the lateral locating ability of the spring doesn't happen exactly the way you think. You could cut the tail end of the spring off behind the axle and it would still hold the axle side to side if the joints/bushings are all tight. Think about that one for a minute. The front of the leaves makes a 2 link suspension. As long as the front bushings are tight and the ubolts are tight, the axle won't move side to side. Now those parts aren't that beefy especially when we start doing our offroady stuff so adding the tail of the spring really helps out but that's what it's doing, helping.


With a flatter leaf, a lateral push at the axle is shoving a pretty strong part sideways and it transfers that load pretty directly into the bushings, brackets and frame. Throw an arch in the leaf and we have the situation most guys see as the all-the-time case: the leaves can pivot around the main eye bushings and shackle bushings and you can get some lateral movement.

There was some mention of the YJ and the leaf sprung superduty trucks and yes they were leaf springs with panhard bars. But, they were built from scratch for that and shackle and bushing arrangements weren't that beefy, panhard bars are pretty flat and they just don't move that much. And service life of the bushings was pretty short if you use them hard. I spent a good bit of time with Mountain Offroad when they were making YJs work and playing games with the panhard bar was a key to the system and there never was a great solution. I had a panhard on my K5 for a couple years with our 1st ORD springs around that time and it never really worked right. I also played with a lot of ideas on how to make a panhard work with leaves when we were racing with some Class 3 guys and looking at building our own K5 to race. It's all been around a while and isn't really new.

To skip closer to the end, my answer is that a panhard can work for a taller lifted truck that has limited wheel travel driven by someone that wants precise steering at the expense of some durability. The reason this works OK is the bar's arc is short due to the limited travel so the amount of side to side forcing is limited and a tall arch spring gets more "swing" effect from pivoting around the front and rear bushings. And it's somewhat natural that the taller lifted springs are stiffer which helps by naturally limiting the wheel travel. The problem is compounded in this case by the fact the bar is at a greater angle and thus swings the axle side to side more.

The worst case is a long travel soft leaf and harder offroad use with a short to moderate lift. Here we have the panhard trying to shove a flat leaf spring side to side which is exactly when it can't move easily. Install one here and you're going to have problems with bushings and frame brackets, probably pretty often. With a shorter lift you have a little help from the fact the panhard bar needs to be relatively flat when the spring is flat but you never do get the bar actually level so it's always sucking the axle to the driver side as the axle moves down from full bump. With a short truck you can get the panhard "wag" down to 1"- 1.25" over 10" of vertical travel. What part of your leaf springs do you think is going to move side to side over an inch? Throw a few more inches of ride height into it and try to keep 10" of wheel travel and the panhard is trying to force the axle to move 2" laterally. Even shortening travel to 7" from a 7-8" lift height (3.5" up and 3.5" down) leaves us with a bar that moves the axle 1 1/8".

This is all assuming the panhard geometry is correct which means it's length is the same as the draglink and it's at the same angle as the draglink. When this is off it can move the axle more AND make it steer crappy. Which brings up another point. With our coilover kits we work with the same crossover steering systems that we use with short lift leaf springs. Our frame side panhard bracket sticks off the side of the frame by a lot of inches since it's hard to fit a 40"+ panhard bar between the steering knuckle at the axle and the frame rail on the driver's side

 

[ChrisPerry]

Great explanation Stephen.

So if they need a panhard bar......... link it.

 

[Stephen]

Great explanation Stephen.

So if they need a panhard bar......... link it.

That's really what it comes down to. It's what lead me into links for sure. I played games with goofy bushing systems and drew up entire leaf spring subframes that moved under the truck and all kinds of other crazy stuff and when you get down to it the same or less effort can get you a link system that works better in every way.
Don't be shy with questions, I feel like there is room to put more in here but I'm trying to work "the day job" (making sure everybody gets the right parts when they're supposed to) while thinking about the fun stuff. Answering questions is a good way to get more info moving.