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The Myth Zone.

AR_K5

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This is the place to get and give scientific answers about common automotive myths.

Since there has been some recent back and forth (involving myself) about the following myth, I though I'd start a new thread specifically for automotive the reduce "Thread Highjacking".

As alway remember to try keep it civil, and light hearted, some are more advanced in certain areas than others. Which is you don't take an alternator to a transmission shop for a rebuild.

Myth:
Removing the battery from a car while the engine is running will fry the electronics in a modern day computerized car, and was only a safe test in older cars with points.

I just spoke with an ASE Certified Master Mechanic who retire from Toyota and now own his own shop. He said so long as you don't rev the engine, the car will remain running (so long as the alternator is working properly) and no damage will occur.

How an alternator works.
http://youtu.be/tiKH48EMgKE

The common "One Wire" alternator is a self exciting alternator and does not require an external power source to power the magnetic field. *note some of the very early alternators were not Self Exciting and did require an external power source (ie some charge in the battery) to function.
It is the job of the voltage regulator to keep the voltage within a usable range.
Myth Busted
 
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Myth: Battery on concrete will discharge the battery in a hurry.

Battery could care less and doesn't discharge any faster on concrete.
 
Myth:
Removing the battery from a car while the engine is running will fry the electronics in a modern day computerized car, and was only a safe test in older cars with points.

I just spoke with an ASE Certified Master Mechanic who retire from Toyota and now own his own shop. He said so long as you don't rev the engine, the car will remain running (so long as the alternator is working properly) and no damage will occur.

The common "One Wire" alternator is a self exciting alternator and does not require an external power source to power the magnetic field. *note some of the very early alternators were not Self Exciting and did require an external power source (ie some charge in the battery) to function.
It is the job of the voltage regulator to keep the voltage within a usable range.
Myth Busted

Not so fast! The Mythbusters never brought in an expert and just said 'Myth Busted!' based on his claims. They always backed up their claims by demonstrating and showing a video of why it did or did not work. So if you're confident of your friend's claim and feel like posting a video of this demonstration on your car and risk replacing your $200 ECM then it's neither busted or confirmed. :popcorn:
 
Myth: Battery on concrete will discharge the battery in a hurry.

Battery could care less and doesn't discharge any faster on concrete.

True:
However along time ago that was not the case.

http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm
Historical Basis
You see, the myth that concrete drains batteries does have some historical basis. Many, many years ago, wooden battery cases encased a glass jar with the battery inside. Any moisture on the floor could cause the wood to swell and possibly fracture the glass, causing it to leak. Later came the introduction of the hard rubber cases, which were somewhat porous and had a high-carbon content. An electrical current could be conducted through this container if the moist concrete floor permitted the current to find an electrical ground. The wise advice of the old days to "keep batteries off concrete" has been passed down to us today, but it no longer applies because of the advanced technology of today’s batteries.
 
Not sure what years of alternators we're arguing about, but I DID burn one out by running on the alternator alone while strap towing a car home several miles. I started the car, pulled the battery and placed it in the towed car to give it brake and running lights for the drive home, about 15-20 minutes.

Hooked everything back up when I got home and it wouldn't charge any more.

Not sure what the deal was, it still ran on the alternator, but once I shut it all down and put the battery back in, it had charging problems from then on until I replaced the alt.

I'm gonna guess I burnt out the regulator.

This was in an '84 Monte Carlo.

I was also still early in the learning of vehicle stuff back then too :doah:
 
Not so fast! The Mythbusters never brought in an expert and just said 'Myth Busted!' based on his claims. They always backed up their claims by demonstrating and showing a video of why it did or did not work. So if you're confident of your friend's claim and feel like posting a video of this demonstration on your car and risk replacing your $200 ECM then it's neither busted or confirmed. :popcorn:

Well that was kind of the point of the expert. He knows the science. I'm not making a TV show so I didn't realize I needed to test the myth but you can go YouTube and see people doing it in modern day cars. It wouldn't scare me a bit.

Btw, I also build fully electric remote control airplanes and have to understand how electricity works to calculate how much battery I can use with a particular motor/propeller combo and not burn up the motor, or exhausted the charge too quickly. (I like brushless motors with Lithium Polymer batteries - but that's another subject)

This is what spurred me to find out the truth about this myth. I never understood why people were so afraid of car electronics being fried, when the voltage regulator is there to prevent just that.

How Does a Car Voltage Regulator Work?
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5027374_car-voltage-regulator-work.html#page=5

This guy doesn't know what he's talking about either, but he saves me some time by unwittingly busting this myth. (You won't get "zapped")
http://youtu.be/RGtw2A4SI1U

*touching the two (+/-) wires together (while doing this test) or the + cable to anything metal would cause a direct short, so DON'T do that.
 
Running open headers will burn your engine's exhaust valves.



Or


Your engine needs backpressure to run properly
 
I have changed batteries from 72 and up all different make and models with car running and not had a problem! Avalon,accord,impala,k1500,pilot,civic,jeep etc and not a problem.
 
Myth:
Removing the battery from a car while the engine is running will fry the electronics in a modern day computerized car, and was only a safe test in older cars with points.

Actually it's not a myth, but what does happen is it forces the alternator to charge at max capacity which could burn up the diode trio.
 
Myth: Battery on concrete will discharge the battery in a hurry.

Battery could care less and doesn't discharge any faster on concrete.

This also was not a myth when dealing with the old tar top batteries. The all plastic case batteries could care less however.
 
I'm not old enough to have ever seen an old "tar-top" battery...:flipoff13:
 
i was always told that the ciment and battery myth,was more about temperature. ciment being mostly cooler especialy in cool basements,than the surrounding air. the fact that the acid was at different temperature made it sulfate. bottom cooerl and top warmer.now i never tested this , but a pretty good teacher learned us that !
 
Actually it's not a myth, but what does happen is it forces the alternator to charge at max capacity which could burn up the diode trio.

That's exactly the myth that I just busted. Read it all and watch the videos.
Removing the battery will only cause the voltage regulator to reduce the magnetic field to keep voltage within a usable range. When the voltage regulator fails it stops transferring energy used to create the magnetic field withing the alternator. No battery is the same as a full battery because there is nowhere for more energy to go. Shorting (touching) the cables creates a short that will cause it to pump out it's maximum amount of current.
 
Man, I had the whole explanation almost written in my head, and then this new stuff got added.......
The video on alternators was good as far as it went. Some of his terms were odd, but mostly correct.
I have never seen one of the self excited alternators like they showed. And I have a very large one out in my barn.
I don't know if they were trying to keep it simple or what, but it was one of the stupidest designs I ever saw.
I did not watch any of the zapped video past the part where he said do not touch the car while touching the positive wire.
After some more sleep, I may go back and watch it. BTW, under certain conditions you could get injured by 12 volts, but you have to work at it.

Just everybody be patient. I promise I am going to write a detailed explanation that will either clear it all up, or muddle things up so bad nobody will ever get it straight........

Couple of things to be thinking about while I'm asleep:

Both posters were right when talking about the relationship between voltage/current draw and work done.
Current draw can either go up or down with voltage! The problem is, you are confusing work done with power.........

Also, hows this for weird? Alternator voltage regulators do not regulate voltage!
That is part of the reason its dangerous to disconnect the battery. Voltage regulators actually regulate current.
And they cannot reduce the current to zero due to the inherent properties of the rotor.

Oh, and self exciting alternators and one wire alternators are not the same always.
To get an idea of where I am going, look up "flashing the field" when it comes to generators.
Also, remember, modern PN junction electronics are much more voltage sensitive than current sensitive when it comes to damage. So, overvoltage even with no serious current behind it can destroy a system.

Crap.... Its midnight, I have to get up in about 4 hours to run through the woods making noises like a female turkey.

Goodnight, I shall return.
 
OK, let me take a stab at this. Remember I'm still running on Turkey Time, so don't expect my usual brilliance........

First let me get the voltage/current problem out of the way:
If you have a circuit with a constant resistance, it will have a current of Volts/Resistance.
12 volts across 2 ohms equals 6 amps.
Double the voltage to 24, and you get 12 amps.

So, how can you have less current with more voltage? That can happen when you are dealing with constant work.
Consider a starter motor driving a constant load of X watts.
If you are powering it with 12 volts, then the current it draws to produce the X watts, is: X/12.
If X equals 1200, then the starter motor is drawing 100 amps.

But, if you double the voltage, the load is not going to change. Its constant. So, the current is going to be 1200 divided by 24, which equals 50 amps.

Double the voltage, draw half the amps. Of course, the effective resistance changed, but its not obvious.
This is why a lot of diesel engines use 24 volt starters, and also why car makers keep talking about going to a 48 volt system. Copper costs, and you need heavier conductors to handle more amps.

Plus, the uptick in voltage is supposed to go along with addressable switching, in which you would only have three wires in the entire car.
A power wire and ground wire which all loads in the car would be hooked to, plus a data wire which would tell the loads when to connect.

If you are going to run the entire car off a single hot wire, you need to minimize the current draw to keep from having to run a starter size wire all over the car.

Alright, that is the simple part. To keep from getting things too big, I'm going to post this and let everybody take their potshots at it while I try to figure out how to explain the alternator part.

Its not all that complicated, and if we were sitting around discussing it, I could explain it fairly quickly.
But, I have no feedback as I write. So I have to go into greater detail than is probably necessary so that everybody understands.

After all, you can't call me an idiot effectively if you don't get what I am saying........
 
Oh, how to start?
Understand, that there are many different styles of alternators. But, the basics are the same.
Most of them do not need any outside electrical source to produce power. Just as the old generators did not use any outside electrical power to start producing.

That was what I meant by "flashing the field". Since a generator had no diodes, it could not be allowed to be connected to the battery when the engine was not running.
If it was, it became a very strong electric motor. So there was a relay in the voltage regulator that opened and disconnected it from the battery.

When you first installed the generator, you hooked a short piece of wire to the battery terminal on the regulator and momentarily arced it to the field terminal.
This put a high current pulse through the fields, which magnetized the iron parts of the field.
BTW, don't do this with an alternator, you can blow the diodes.

There was enough magnetism in the fields to start producing electricity when the generator started turning.
This voltage was fed back into the fields to produce more voltage, which made more until the relay had enough voltage to pull in and bring in the battery.
Most alternators will produce voltage the same way without being hooked to the battery.
So, even if the regulator quits supplying voltage to the system to turn it off, it will usually produce some level of voltage.

Lets look at a battery. To the electric circuit, it is a power source, a capacitor, and a resistor.

None of the numbers I am about to use are necessarily real world stuff, I use them because they make the math easy.
Now, consider a battery that it putting out exactly 12 volts. There is nothing in the car turned on, so it is not putting out any current.
Fire off the alternator. It starts putting out exactly 12 volts. Since the two voltages are equal, no current flows. As far as the alternator is concerned, its an open circuit.

Lets say the voltage regulator is set for 12 volts. Since there is no load, the voltage jumps up to the setting very quickly. As soon as it does, the VR tries to hold it there.
It shuts down the drive to the armature. Assume for an instant that the alt is not actually hooked to anything.
Since there is really no load, the inherent magnetism will cause the voltage to drift up to whatever its natural level is under no load.
The VR as done all it can do.
Now, lets let the battery be there.

As soon as the voltage starts to exceed 12 volts, current starts to flow into the battery.
A battery acts like a resistor. The higher the voltage put in, the more current it draws.
So, it very quickly loads down the drifting voltage to 12 volts.

Now, consider the voltage regulator. It cannot respond instantly. In fact, it better not.
If it tries to track and compensate for every little change in load, it will be constantly hunting back and forth, overshooting, undershooting, and might even go into oscillation.
Lots of times you can see this in the voltmeter in the dash when the turn signals are blinking.
The signals put a load on the alternator faster then the regulator will respond. So, the voltage dips closer to the battery voltage, and then comes back up when the signals turn off.

Even if the regulator could respond that fast, the magnetic fields in the armature take a finite length of time to build up and collapse.

Remember the windings in a alternator have a certain resistance which is in series with the load of the output.

Say the alternator is running, charging the battery, and running the computer.
The computer is drawing 1 amp @ 12 volts.
The battery is drawing 11 amps @ 12 volts.

Total, 12 amps.
The regulator is supplying the armature with enough current to put out 12 volts at that current level.
Which means that the alternator is being loaded down by an effective resistance of 1 ohm.
I hope you can see that if the load increased, in other words, the resistance went down, the output voltage of the alternator would drop for a second. The amount of power the regulator is putting into the armature is enough to create 144 watts.
12 volts times 12 amps.
If the resistance were cut in half, before the regulator compensated, it would still be putting out 144 watts, but now the load would be calling for 24 amps.

144 watts divided by 24 amps, equals 6 volts. If the battery were in the circuit, it would not get that low, because the battery would immediately supply the extra current until the voltage regulator caught up.

Now, consider what could happen if the battery were suddenly removed from the circuit.
Remember, even if you cut the wire from the voltage regulator to the armature at the same time, it takes time for the magnetic field to collapse.

So, you have an alternator being driven by the VR to produce 144 watts @ 12 amps.
144 watts divided by 12 amps is 12 volts.

Suddenly that 144 watts is being pumped into a 1 amp load. What is the voltage now?
144 watts divided by 1 amp equals 144 volts.........

Would it go that high? Probably not. but you will definitely get a heck of a spike.

Modern electronics have surge suppressors like Zener Diodes and MOVs to clamp high voltage and prevent it from doing damage.

I suspect that that is the reason you don't hear about people frying their systems by removing the battery anymore.
But, the farther back in time you go, the less sophisticated the protection you have.
I personally helped replace two different radios in friend's vehicles after they failed when a battery was removed with it running.

One was on purpose, to jump a guy off when they had no jumper cables, and the other one just fell out when he hit a bump.
I'm not sure at this late date if either car had a computer in it, probably not.

I personally had the output of my alternator go to almost 25 volts when a diode blew in my isolator.
It removed the battery from the circuit that the sense line was hooked to, so the alternator had no feedback to tell it what the output voltage was. I figured out that something was wrong when I smelled the other battery boiling.
Other than the battery, I never saw any damage.

So, you could say that its OK to remove the battery from a running truck, because all the electronics has internal protection to save it from high voltage.
But that is a little like saying its OK to overload that wire over there because there is bound to be a fuse in the circuit somewhere.

Read, study, figure out where I am wrong, and get back to me tomorrow. I am going to get something to eat, and go to bed.

Turkeys plus work beckon tomorrow.
 
Running open headers will burn your engine's exhaust valves.
Or
Your engine needs backpressure to run properly

Open headers is fine. But No headers or manifolds (bare heads)will IIRC.

these two are pet peeves of mine

MYTH.
The correct pressure to run in your tires is the one right on the side of the tire (MAX):doah:

and

MYTH.
A 285 is a TALL :rolleyes: tire... or A 60 means its WIDE:haha:
 
Power
The product of applied potential difference and current in a direct-current
Current
-a flow of electricity through a conductor; (current is measured in amps)
Volt
-a unit of potential equal to the potential difference between two points on a conductor carrying a current of 1 ampere when the power dissipated between the two points is 1 watt
Ampere
-a measure of the amount of electric charge flowing past a circuit point at a specific time
Watt
-a unit of power equal to 1 joule per second; the power dissipated by a current of 1 ampere flowing across a resistance of 1 ohm
Ohm
A unit of electrical resistance equal to that of a conductor in which a current of one ampere is produced by a potential of one volt across its terminals.

Volts x Amps = Watts
Volts / Amp = ohms

**Any two of those measurements can be used to get the other two.

You are assuming that in every circuit the resistance must remain constant.
The easy answer to that is that voltage regulator is a type of "Rheostat"

In an alternator the voltage regulator changes the ohms (resistance) in order to alter the magnetic field and maintain a usable voltage and increase or decrease amp output to match demand.

If the ohms were constant the voltage would swing wildly with the rpm of the engine. At no point does the starter ever run on power being supplied by the alternator. Take two car batteries and hook it up 24v and see what happens. It'll spin twice as fast and eat the teeth right off the flywheel. Most semi's have 3-4 batteries but still run on a 12v system. This lets them to have more cranking amps to crank the engine longer in cold weather when it doesn't start right away. I have one in the garage, it's a 1000cca and reads 16v on the volt meter.

Variable speed motors work on the same principles. Resistance goes down, volts steady, amps and watts go up.

Electronics operate on a range, a light bulb has a specific resistance, a length of wire has a specific resistance. Two wires attached to the poles adds to the resistance of the circuit (Longer = more) If you add a rheostat (aka variable resistor, aka dimmer switch) to the circuit to alter the resistance and the voltage remains constant the amps and watts will vary accordingly and the light gets brighter and dimmer. Try it with a volt meter.

Maybe this will help.
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.htm
 
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Fordum: I knew you'd bring up a my nemesis for that example - the motor. The back EMF they create makes them behave in an odd way - like being a generator at the same time they're a motor. The way they fight each other it's no wonder they even spin at all. :crazy:

AR_K5: Fordum used current and amps in the correct context.
And as I said in the other thread:
"Current
-a flow of electricity through a conductor; (can be measured in volts or amps)"

This is not correct - current is measured in amps, voltage is measured in volts. Please post the link where you copied/pasted this from.

As for the rest of that post ... I'm pretty sure Fordum has forgotten more about electronics than you'll ever know. Knowing him he'll go easy on you. Being a newbie to this community you should really know your audience and what background they have before you teach us something. This site is a brotherhood and everyone respects one another and their knowledge. The way you respond to others comes across as a bit harsh at times. Might want to change that if you want others to continue to give you their input. Just giving a little constructive criticism. :whistle:
 

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