Tons of Play in Steering

[dudeiwin86]

Beating the dead horse, im sure.

This is my first solid front axle vehicle so im second guessing a lot of my diagnosis. hope you dont mind my bouncing em out there.

i just finished installing my XJ shaft and was very excited about it until i got on the road......

issue #1. frame is cracked at the steering box. Prev. Owner obviously tried to fix it. amateur welding job (not that i could do better) and some of the welds have cracked (but not all).

i dont think the crack is the main source of my lack of steering tho.

When i have the car parked, but running, i turn the steering wheel and the wheels will not move almost at all.

upon closer inspection... the drag link is deflecting.. the pitman arm end travels up or down (bending/deflecting) as the pitman arm turns,
but the the axle end doesnt turn the wheel hub at all.

going down the road i can barely make a left turn, but right turns are much easier and close to "normal".

i want to convert to crossover steering eventually, but im wondering if there is something im overlooking that might be a short term solution without dropping a ton of coin.

while parked i can turn the wheel 180 degrees either way, and get almost to the stops without moving the tires. while driving down the road there is probably a total of 90 degrees either way from center where it does nothing to effect direction.

i dont have a high steer steering arm or pitman arm.
im only running 33" tires with about 4" of lift (at most... maybe not even that much)

is the deflection in the drag link due to bad joints or just bad steering angles due to lack of high steer stuff?

 

[clandr1]

Not that I'm all that experienced, but a lot of your problems are probably from the cracked frame. The flex of the frame is soaking up all your motion when turning the wheel.

Also, what do you mean by "deflecting" when talking about the drag link?

 

[sweetk30]

loss of steering turn on left = no steering correction

xj shaft needs a block of steel welded to the outer tube part of the slip joint and drilled/taped to hold few set screws to eliminate play in the flex joint. http://coloradok5.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2500789&postcount=167

sounds like worn out steering box on the play in the output/sector shaft.

and most important section is the broken frame rail. this needs fixed asap.

i fixed a broken frame for a guy 1 time with almost 180* before the steering would catchup to the steering wheel movement.

get the frame weld on repair kit and a bolt in box brace kit and strip the frame down to bare steel and fix the crap from before and weld it up good. dont forget to drill a tiny hole at the ends of the cracks to stop later movement of the cracks. http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/steeringkit.htm

when i did just the weld in kit and bolt in kit to his truck he got 90% of the lost steering fixed .

http://coloradok5.com/ordframebrace.shtml

http://coloradok5.com/ordsteeringbracereview.shtml

 

[dudeiwin86]

i fixed a broken frame for a guy 1 time with almost 180* before the steering would catchup to the steering wheel movement.

get the frame weld on repair kit and a bolt in box brace kit and strip the frame down to bare steel and fix the crap from before and weld it up good. dont forget to drill a tiny hole at the ends of the cracks to stop later movement of the cracks. http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/steeringkit.htm

when i did just the weld in kit and bolt in kit to his truck he got 90% of the lost steering fixed .

is the kit more of a DIY thing? (weld in)
could a shop not just clean up the old welds and weld into the frame to repair it? what is the advantage of the patch panel.
i plan on installing the brace regardless.

i dont see much if any movement in the frame, but maybe the movement is subtle enough and that is what is soaking it up.
time to goto a body/frame shop first i guess. im not good enough(nor equipped enough) with a stick to do it myself.

but it sounds like identical symptoms from the case you cured, so i will tackle that first.
thanks for the direction. so many small issues from the PO i cant get my head straight.

 

[Fordum]

The hidden danger with the frame problem, is that the steering box might come completely off the truck at a moment's notices.

To find the play, do it logically.
Start at the steering wheel.
Look at the input shaft to the box. When you turn the wheel, does the input shaft turn at the exact same time? If not, then the shaft has problems.
Should not be the problem with the new shaft.

Then, watch or hold on to the arm coming out of the box. When you start to turn the wheel, that arm should start to turn immediately.
Turn, not move back and forth.
If the output shaft moves sideways instead of turning, probably time for a rebuild.

Keep going like that. In a perfect world, a slight turn of wheel would result in a movement of the tires.
When one part moves in the correct direction, but the part it is attached to does not, the problem is between those two parts.

 

[Amtek]

upon closer inspection... the drag link is deflecting.. the pitman arm end travels up or down (bending/deflecting) as the pitman arm turns,
but the the axle end doesnt turn the wheel hub at all.

Assuming there is no movement caused by the cracked frame and the input and output shaft turn at exactly the same time (no slop in gear box) then:

The pitman arm is excessivly loose and if its been this way for a long time, the splines are probably rounded. Remove the bolt that clamps it to the output shaft (has to be completely out), pull the pitman arm off and clean the splines on the arm and output shaft with a tooth/wire brush. Put the arm back on and tighten the bolt that clamps it onto the output shaft to 80-90ft lbs. If it still moves up and down under load then the splines on the pitman arm are worn and will need to be replaced.

Next check the U-bolts holding the axle to the leafspring. Back the nuts off a little; apply antiseize on the threads, make sure the u-bolts are straight and tighten down to 90ft lbs. If it slides even a tiny bit, it will give alot of slop to your steering. Check the leaf spring eye bolt at the front and tighten as neccessary.

Then look for play in the upper ball joint, the whole steering system pivots around this point so they tend to wear out a little faster than the rest. Put a finger at the knuckle and the axle 'C' while someone wiggles the steering wheel back and forth slightly, If you feel it slide back and forth before it starts turning, the ball joint is worn and needs to be replaced.



I had to fix ALL these things on my truck when I bought it. The U-bolts were loose and the axle would slide back and forth. Been that way for so long that the center pin had wallowed out the centering hole on the leaf spring mount on the axle. Front leaf spring bolt was also loose with a wallowed out hole. Same issue with the ball joint, and the pitman arm was also loose. Could turn the wheel 90 degrees before the wheels turned. Fixed all those issues and replaced the ball joints now she's nice and tight again

 

[dudeiwin86]

big 10-4.
thanks for all of the insight. im trying to track down a place to repair my frame and then i will be following your list to a T amtek.

very much appreciated!

 

[dudeiwin86]

figured i would give an update....

the frame was the culprit. (duh, right?)

i got the weld in plate from ORD and had that put in because the steering got so bad that the truck wouldnt even turn. the frame was trashed.

once i got to looking at it, the PO had done all sorts of half assed welding work with bolts and nuts welded into the frame trying to hold it together.

it is night and day difference, better than when i first picked it up!
will be ordering the brace to further reinforce it from future damage as well.

--

one question.
what is the downside to having the plate welded ALL THE WAY AROUND.
i went over the instructions with the shop, about doing beads in certain areas like the instructions show,
but when i picked it up, his welder had gone around the whole entire plate.... i was a little irritated by that.

thanks again,
miles

 

[Amtek]

Glad to hear you got it sorted out. This shows you should never trust the PO's work, lol. While probably not ideal to have the plate welded all around, Its nothing to worry about. Even moreso with the brace. I would still check the other things listed to get the best possible feel in the steering.

I've spent the last few weeks sorting out the mess of wires and modifications left by the PO on mine. In a perfect example of "what the hell were they thinking?!"; The truck had a starter with a bad relay, so instead of replacing it, the PO built a custom switch panel for the ignition and wired the starter to a toggle switch so you can turn it on then jump out and bang on the starter with the steering wheel club till it starts cranking, then jump back in and turn the switch off.

 

[Fordum]

wired the starter to a toggle switch so you can turn it on then jump out and bang on the starter with the steering wheel club till it starts cranking, then jump back in and turn the switch off.

That is stupid, asinine, idiotic and just plain wrong............

Everybody knows that you put the switch under the hood, so you can beat on the starter while you work the switch!!

 

[sniperthx1]

That's hilarious.


When I got my V10, I noticed the engine and every single electrical item in the truck would shut off and come back on when I hit a bump.

Being as this truck has a manual transmission, this was a particularly fun ride.

Since it was all the electrical shutting off at once, I looked at the main positive and main negative cable.

Turns out the wire that goes directly from the battery to the starter was bouncing around.

The part of the housing surrounding the stud on the starter had completely broken off, and when I hit a bump it would lose contact.

My steering box was also hanging off the frame, and I had the frame welded, braced, and then installed the ORD steering brace. Don't anticipate any problems in the future.

 

[Amtek]

That is stupid, asinine, idiotic and just plain wrong............

Everybody knows that you put the switch under the hood, so you can beat on the starter while you work the switch!!

that made my day

The sad thing is, he probably spent the same amount of money on the materials and switches as it would have cost to replace the starter. Not to mention the time and effort spent to reroute the ignition switch, bypassing the neutral saftey switch and mounting it all on the panel below the dash. He used 8 guage sub/amp wires that ran from the toggle switch through the firewall and spliced it into the stock harness.

I cleaned up that mess and replaced the starter. Replaced the toggle switch with a push button instead. I like bypassing the neuatral saftey switch however. Comes in handy when the truck stalls on a hill, just push the button and gas it while still in drive!

 

[tRustyK5]

one question.
what is the downside to having the plate welded ALL THE WAY AROUND.
i went over the instructions with the shop, about doing beads in certain areas like the instructions show,
but when i picked it up, his welder had gone around the whole entire plate.... i was a little irritated by that.

thanks again,
miles

Welding it solid all the way around causes stress risers in the frame around the patch...which can lead to more cracking later.

Running the bolt on brace as well should hopefully mitigate that some.

The final piece of your steering problems will be steering correction. A raised steering arm will help a lot and is inexpensive. X-over would be ideal but is a fair bit more $$.

You want the current drag link to be close to level. When it is level 100% of the steering input goes to pushing or pulling the pitman arm instead of deflecting some and pushing/pulling some.

Rene

 

[dudeiwin86]

i was afraid of that (the future cracking).
i guess ill cross that bridge when i get there.

the plan, in order is:
-steering box brace
-14 bolt rear (because my 10 bolt is going to explode any day now with all the noise it makes and oil it pukes upon being refilled)
-crossover steer. along with 8 lug conversion unless i find a matching axle set.

fortunately the first 2 should be cheap and easy and get this thing at least 100% reliable. then i can start moving onto the luxury items like a working radio and A/C lol.