Walk me through this.

[colbystephens]

Ok, so I've been having alot of trouble with our '64 Beetle starting - particularly on the 30* mornings - but this doesn't always seem to be related to cold weather. Sometimes after driving it, it still won't start. The speed that the engine turns over is very slow when the ignition switch does work. Sometimes if the ignition switch won't work, I can cross wires and get the starter to turn over but that doesn't mean it will start.... I can bump start it EVERY time.

The starter and ignition switch are new. The battery is likely very old. We've owned the car a couple years now and the battery was there before we got it. It boils off the water pretty quickly (I have to add water every couple months). I took the car to a battery dealer and they checked it and told me it was fine. I don't understand how battery testing works - I don't see how they can tell how much cold weather will change the battery's ability to work...

Anyway, I decided to trickle-charge the battery over night and see how it starts. It fired up really well the first morning, so I've been doing this a few nights in a row now. It fires up every time, very quickly. This morning it is 26* outside and it fired up like it was 80*.

So: What do you think the problem is? Is it the battery? Or do you suppose I have some sort of draw on my electrical system that is dropping the voltage? How do I determine if it's a draw? If it is, that doesn't explain why I can drive the car, shut it off to run into the grocery store for 2 minutes and come back out and get nothing when I turn the key. I'm inclined to think the battery is pretty shot, but I hate to drop $100 on a new 6V battery if that's not the issue.

 

[KansasTwister]

Ok, so I've been having alot of trouble with our '64 Beetle starting - particularly on the 30* mornings - but this doesn't always seem to be related to cold weather. Sometimes after driving it, it still won't start. The speed that the engine turns over is very slow when the ignition switch does work. Sometimes if the ignition switch won't work, I can cross wires and get the starter to turn over but that doesn't mean it will start.... I can bump start it EVERY time.

The starter and ignition switch are new. The battery is likely very old. We've owned the car a couple years now and the battery was there before we got it. It boils off the water pretty quickly (I have to add water every couple months). I took the car to a battery dealer and they checked it and told me it was fine. I don't understand how battery testing works - I don't see how they can tell how much cold weather will change the battery's ability to work...

Anyway, I decided to trickle-charge the battery over night and see how it starts. It fired up really well the first morning, so I've been doing this a few nights in a row now. It fires up every time, very quickly. This morning it is 26* outside and it fired up like it was 80*.

So: What do you think the problem is? Is it the battery? Or do you suppose I have some sort of draw on my electrical system that is dropping the voltage? How do I determine if it's a draw? If it is, that doesn't explain why I can drive the car, shut it off to run into the grocery store for 2 minutes and come back out and get nothing when I turn the key. I'm inclined to think the battery is pretty shot, but I hate to drop $100 on a new 6V battery if that's not the issue.

Take the battery into a parts store and test it, that would be my first step.

 

[longbedder]

Based on the behavior you describe I would say that it's very probably the battery. Average automotive battery life is somewhere in the 5-7 year range.

 

[colbystephens]

Take the battery into a parts store and test it, that would be my first step.

I took the car to a battery dealer and they checked it and told me it was fine. I don't understand how battery testing works - I don't see how they can tell how much cold weather will change the battery's ability to work...

 

[dhcomp]

This may sound stupid, but check your cables. When i had bad cables in my blazer (from teh gm side post issue), they corroded on teh inside, woudl start fine with a TOPPED off battery, but after driving for hours, wouldn't even get a click when i tried to start it again.

 

[colbystephens]

thanks, i will look them over more carefully.

 

[dhcomp]

thanks, i will look them over more carefully.

I wish i had a way for you to test them, but i don't. Mine were corroded on the inside.....so sorta impossible to tell until i cut them open.

I have NO idea how they run in a bug, but if the runs aren't long, and have standard ends, Walmart sells cables for cheap that would help you troubleshoot.

I'm guessing combination battery/cables

 

[rufusbooth]

One thing you mentioned is that it is boiling off water quickly. That is a bit concerning. That could indicate some kind of issue with your charging system. Do you have a volt meeter? If you do take a reading of the voltage on the batt after you have been driving it for a bit. Check it at idle and at like 2500 RPM. Report back with the readings and we should be able to tell the condition of the charging system.


Cheers,


Rufus

 

[colbystephens]

charging system is good. puts out almost 7 volts. new brushes in the generator as of last spring.

 

[rufusbooth]

But no more than 7? Fast loss of bat water is an indication of overcharging. Make sure you take a voltage reading at a higher RPM where the regulator will have to tone down the generator output.

Rufus

 

[Big Blzn]

I'm gonna go a different route and say it's the battery. Colby, you have much more mechanical skills than I do and that is the first thing I'd replace. After some time, most batteries won't take to trickle charging, etc and just need to be replaced.

BTW, are you guys still planning on selling the bug?

 

[colbystephens]

yeah, we checked the voltage output at a variety of RPMs and it all checked out fine.

We are still planning on selling the bug. Have to deal with a few more issues and then it'll go up for sale.

 

[tymbom]

6 Volt battery?? Needs to be upgraded to a 12 volt... Now is the perfect time to make the change...

 

[rufusbooth]

Well, if the charging system is indeed up to snuff there are only 3 items that could be the issue.

1. battery. If it was properly load tested then I would trust the test. they should have put a load on the (fully charged) battery and watch the voltage drop over time.

2. Starter. If the starter is drawing too much current it could be your culprit. you could remove the starter and take it down to your local auto parts store to test it out. Although I am guessing the starter is not the issue in this case.

3. Batt cables. if you have an internally corroded set of cables it could cause these kinds of issues.

If I were facing this issue the next thing I would do is replace the battery cables. They should be reasonably priced and has the best chance to resolve the issue. Make sure you clean the contact points on both ends of each cable. Also, you might want to clean the ground strap from the engine to the frame while you are at it.

if you weren't selling it I would recommend the swap to 12 volt as well. it is definitely worth it.

Replacing the Generator/Alternator, changing the coil, changing the choke element, changing the light bulbs, changing the horn, changing the wiper motor, changing the battery, installing a new stereo, and you are all set.

Not too much to deal with and the lighting and starting capabilities are night and day.

Rufus

 

[Blazin'4x4]

Battery

x 10 on the battery, but if you want to check for a parasitic draw, hook your volt meter to your battery and un plug each fuse one at a time untill battery voltage stops dropping. not necessary if its holding the same voltage in the morning as it did the previous night.

Check your starter by determining if it draws more than 3 volts during crank. voltmeter should read 9.5+ while cranking. Otherwise there is a mechanical resistance somewhere.

Good luck

 

[dhcomp]

Also, you might want to clean the ground strap from the engine to the frame while you are at it.

Nothing wrong with upgrading grounds. I would install a new "lawn and garden" cable from walmart for like $5 in addition to the factory ground strap. Cheap insurance.

 

[Matt J.]

6 Volt battery?? Needs to be upgraded to a 12 volt... Now is the perfect time to make the change...

Check the braided ground strap under the back seat.Negative batt terminal to the pan. I would just change it no matter how good it looks. It's like $4.00.

12V is the way to go for sure. It can get pricey though. 12V conversion requires the following:
12V Battery.
12V Generator.
12V Flywheel
Original wiring harness is fine but all bulbs need to be changed to 12V

Also, I know it sounds wierd but I read several articles about the idiot light causing a draw which gives symptoms like yours. Does your idiot light for the generator work? If not it could be part of the problem.

Definetly sounds like a shot battery but I'm just throwing some info out there. Good luck. I love working on the old school v-dubs.

 

[4X4HIGH]

You either have a battery that is failing on you or a bad ground. Most batteries start to give issues around 3-4 years old. I have been running interstate batteries for years now and i have had them last me on average 8-10 years with no issues. Interstate batteries definately aren't cheap and since you're planning on selling the bug anyways i wouldn't spend the extra cash on one b ut rather buy a middle of the line battery. Unfortunately 6 volt batteries aren't as cheap as they once were since nothing uses 6 volts anymore.

 

[Fordum]

OK, maybe here is where an old fart like me can help better then these young'ins around here.
First of all, remember its Volts times Amps equals Work.

Which means to do the same job, it takes twice as many amps for 6 volts as it does 12.

Which means if you go to Walmart and buy a nice set of battery cables, they may not do the job. 6 volt cables are way bigger than 12 volt cables.
I used to use 6 volt NAPA cables on all my equipment.
Massive cables.
What this also means is that connections are even more critical than 12 volts.

First of all, boiling the battery is wrong. You either have a shorted cell in the battery, which usually means only one boils out, or your generator is putting out too much voltage.
I suspect the contacts in the voltage regulator are sticking and giving and intermittent overcharge. But, that is not necessarily your main problem.
Lets take things one at a time.

Something draining it.

Turn off everything. Remove one cable from the battery, and put your voltmeter between the battery and the cable with it set on volts.
If you see full battery voltage, then you have a drain.
You cannot tell how much without checking the amps, but lets not do that now.
Instead, if you have battery voltage or less, down to about .5 volts, start pulling fuses one at a time until the voltage goes below .5 or so volts.
Check to see if the fuse you pulled should be causing a load. Clock, etc. If not, try to find out why it is.

If you have no drain, then lets check the battery and cables.
This may sound weird, but stay with me.
Make sure the battery is fully charged. Hook it back up, and then turn on everything on the car. Well, maybe not the wipers, no sense in wearing out the blades. But turn everything else on. Headlights on bright, radio, fan on high. whatever will put a load on the battery.

Set your meter on the lowest voltage scale, and measure from the center of the positive post to the positive clamp. Yep, the same one the clamp is hooked to.
You should not see any voltage. Then go from the positive post of the battery to where the positive wire hooks up. Keep doing that as long as you can farther away from the battery.
If you find no voltage then do the same thing with the negative terminal.
Remember Negative post to negative clamp.
The idea here is that even under load, a connection should have zero volt across it. All the current going into a connection should come out the other side. If you have corrosion, such inside a battery cable, then you will lose some voltage under load The more the load, the more the loss.

Its called looking for voltage drop, and it is a great way to check cables and connections. You really have to max out the load to make the drop easier to see.
Ideally you should do this with the starter cranking, but you don't want to burn up the starter by cranking it too long.

Another way to check is to have someone measure the voltage across the battery terminals while cranking on a day it will start, and comper the voltage across them when it cranks slow.
If the battery voltage is a lot lower when it won't crank then the battery is not fully charged or bad. If the battery voltage is normal, or higher, then you have a bad connection not letting the battery see the load.
One more quick and dirty check. When it cranks really slowly, and you don't have the voltmeter to see if the battery is putting out what it should, crank it for a minute or so without pumping the throttle. No sense in flooding it.
Then fairly quickly feel the wires and connections looking for heat. BE CAREFUL, you might find a part that is really hot. When you are losing voltage, under a high load like the starter, then that voltage, actually current, gets turned into heat instead of turning over your engine, and if you find a hot connection, you have found your problem.

J.

 

[colbystephens]

thanks for all the replies, everyone. it'll really help me do some diagnostic stuff...

Headlights on bright, radio, fan on high.

as if those exist...