CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.
Welding on the frame
- Thread starter GRINCH
- Start date
Stomis
Professional Amateur
Good to see you dug this thread up an got it back on track
seriously. I guess you better call up every vehicle manufacturer thats ever welded a coil bucket to the frame and tell them to recall their vehicle cause the frame is gonna break on the vertical weld.
Vertical welds/cuts are a no no on huge stress areas like frame splices. My coil buckets are going to get welded on my fully fabd frame for my project in a vertical line and I bet you nothing will ever happen...
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
Frame welding 101 cont.
I think you guys are smashing your heads into your cages too often...
Or maybe you're all butt-hurt because you welded your frame incorrectly and ruined it?
To understand why vertical welds are in fact a bad thing, you need to understand how a ladder frame works and reacts to stress. Along with understanding what happens to metal during welding...
Ladder frames (our frames) have more potential to flex in-between weight supporting mounts along with more potential to twist in-between the rail...not so much potential flex from side to side (left to right).
When you weld (even plain old mild steel) you induce a dramatic heating and cooling that effects the areas adjacent to the weld. Doing this makes the metal less elastic, more brittle, and slightly weaker. Especially when joining different thickness materials (thicker acts as a heat-sink and pulls the heat out of the thinner (frame) even faster than welding materials of the same thickness) therefor making the thinner (frame) metal even more brittle.
Now, vertical welds are a problem in ladder framed vehicles because of the potential flex. Horizontal are not so much because they will not see the flex that a vertical weld will.
If you were to add a cage tied into a frame, you would be changing the ladder frame to something closer to a space frame. Thus eliminating alot of the potential front to back and twisting flex...even then vertical welds are not ideal, because you're pre-fatiguing the frame with heat, and if you take a big hit you may end up with something being ripped off right next to your vertical weld.
Do I need to draw you a picture?
On frames that already have problems with cracking why would you introduce more potential spots for it to crack?
I think you guys are smashing your heads into your cages too often...
Or maybe you're all butt-hurt because you welded your frame incorrectly and ruined it?
To understand why vertical welds are in fact a bad thing, you need to understand how a ladder frame works and reacts to stress. Along with understanding what happens to metal during welding...
Ladder frames (our frames) have more potential to flex in-between weight supporting mounts along with more potential to twist in-between the rail...not so much potential flex from side to side (left to right).
When you weld (even plain old mild steel) you induce a dramatic heating and cooling that effects the areas adjacent to the weld. Doing this makes the metal less elastic, more brittle, and slightly weaker. Especially when joining different thickness materials (thicker acts as a heat-sink and pulls the heat out of the thinner (frame) even faster than welding materials of the same thickness) therefor making the thinner (frame) metal even more brittle.
Now, vertical welds are a problem in ladder framed vehicles because of the potential flex. Horizontal are not so much because they will not see the flex that a vertical weld will.
If you were to add a cage tied into a frame, you would be changing the ladder frame to something closer to a space frame. Thus eliminating alot of the potential front to back and twisting flex...even then vertical welds are not ideal, because you're pre-fatiguing the frame with heat, and if you take a big hit you may end up with something being ripped off right next to your vertical weld.
Do I need to draw you a picture?
On frames that already have problems with cracking why would you introduce more potential spots for it to crack?
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
There is a difference between being a weldor and a fabricator.
This is one of those differences.
Maybe the ck5 crowd is not the caliber of builders I thought you were.
Or maybe you just need a fancy sig and thousands of posts to get any respect....even if you are the only poster in the thread who has any idea what they're talking about?
Not trying to make enemies, but ignorance on an information sharing website is ridiculous.
And again, it is this kind of poorly executed fabrication that gives people who modify cars/trucks a bad image.
This is one of those differences.
Maybe the ck5 crowd is not the caliber of builders I thought you were.
Or maybe you just need a fancy sig and thousands of posts to get any respect....even if you are the only poster in the thread who has any idea what they're talking about?
Not trying to make enemies, but ignorance on an information sharing website is ridiculous.
And again, it is this kind of poorly executed fabrication that gives people who modify cars/trucks a bad image.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
I've seen your fully fabbed frame, and one word comes to mind..."why?"
You're going through making your own frame and keeping it a ladder frame...
That be back asswards : (
Stomis
Professional Amateur
Why not? Cause I didnt make the thing out of DOM? Its a fresh canvas for a different drivetrain and suspension, plus my frame was shot. Im not building a hammers car. The small amount of extra weight outweighs the ease of measuring and locating things on the frame.
This website never claimed to be some 4x4 uber custom fab mecca. CK5 probably only has a 15-25% base that does hardcore fab (beyond bumpers and sliders). I dont understand what you came here for? You registered, dug up and old thread and started re-arguing with people about it.
Is my fab bad? Is my truck going to fall apart when I weld my coil buckets on with vertical welds? Are you here to come after me ,jethro, beast? I just don't get it. Do you really think that you're the only one here that knows what their talking about?
Nobody is butt hurt but you're a new guy around here trying to bulldoze your ideas onto everyone else as 100% golden truth so you have to expect some resistance. I've welded all over my frame and I haven't "ruined" it. My truck has seen a good amount of trail and dune running and it's just fine.
Nobody is denying this, it's just a matter of if it's worth worrying about. Do you want $100,000 or $100,005? Is there a difference? Yeah. Would you care if you were getting the money? Doubt it.
I agree you change the metal's properties when you weld on it but in most cases it's still so overkill you don't have anything to worry about. Keep in mind 99% of the trucks we're talking about aren't balls out desert racing. Plus anything that's taking serious hits doesn't have a factory frame under it.
These are the kinds of comments that make guys already hate you. You have to understand you're new around here. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you could be knowledgeable but you have to realize it's a forum, we see a username and a join date. We don't know who you are, what you're experience is or anything like that. Stop pissing guys off right off the bat and post up what you're working on and you'll get the respect you deserve.
There's some great fabricators on here. Is this site made up of a bunch of 4400 KOH race trucks? Nope. But that doesn't mean we don't know a thing or two about what works in the real world.
No fancy sig needed (although it helps)
Like I said above, you don't need thousands of posts but a few posts wouldn't hurt to let us know who we're even talking to.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
It must also be understood that our frames will see alot more stress than the mfr ever intended. They did not design them to do the things we do to them, therefor stock design is irrelevant.
Not to mention...manufacturers often use things like fishmouth cuts straight from production.
Stomis
Professional Amateur
And most things are either plated, made out of thicker material, or gusseted when built to take abuse like we dish out.
Honestly why so aggressive for first posts? And for the record your post count and sig have nothing to do with reputation around here but being unestablished and rude will get you hated on whether you know what you're talking about or not.
Got some pictures of your project or work?
O and btw Ive been looking for constructive criticism on my project and have generally gotten the that over my head response from the majority of people.
Unless you post up some of your fab skills and show your stuff your just blowing hot air as far as I'm concerned. I'll put my fab & design skills against yours any day of the week. So either post some pics up or go away.
FRIZZLEFRY
1/2 ton status
1. I genuinely hope you are wearing head and neck protection because if you take a spill off that horse as high up as you are you could really get hurt.
2. I dont know where you got your expectations, but there is no talent here on CK5. We are all non fabbing ignorant dumb****s,and undoubtedly we are all better people from reading the wealth of knowledge that you have shared with our community.
3. Folks on the interwebz git tired of people that dont bring anything to the table but book learnin jibrish talking down to them .
So put up or shut up. Wow and amaze us with some craptacular bullsh*t you have cobbled together or STFU.
So if I go grab a book and throw out a bunch of theory and magic bullsh*t Im the better fabricator?
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
@ stomis - Yes, if I were going to go that far I would make a legit triangulated space frame. Then skin it to look like a k5.
Honestly, this is not hardcore fab stuff...this is stuff everyone should know before modifying their vehicle. (assuming vehicle is to be used on public roads) Like I said, if it doesn't see the road, go for it.
Depends how you intend to use it. I'm not out for anyone, if anything I'm trying to correct information that could get somebody hurt/killed. (again, assuming on road use)
@ Avery - I don't claim to know everything. That's why I made an account and posed the question in the first place. Any half way skilled body or frame shop can tell you exactly what I am. Technically, it would be considered ruined...do anything like this on your DD and try to insure it afterwards. Again, assuming your truck sees any road time, there are better/safer ways to do it.
I understand that most trucks won't see the stress required to actually tear the frame. But, what worries me (especially since this is a forum and people look here for advice) Is that these people do not have the experience to lay a solid weld in the first place...that coupled with bad technique is a recipe for disaster.
This is exactly why I have stayed off the forums until now. If someone is explaining to you exactly how your way if flawed and gives you technically sound explanations, why the hate?
I've seen lots of great fabricators on here, and by no means am I any better than anyone. But there are specific ways of welding to frame for a reason.
@ ryoken - I know you like lots of pics, I like your gallery's. There will be a pic heavy build thread comming...maybe not on ck5 : )
@ All - if you read my first post how is it aggressive at all? (besides the jab at KJ, but he deserved it)
Until I setup my sig...86 k5- As it sits, it's a busted ass m1009 with a blown 6.2 Detroit diesel. Been acquiring parts for the build...4btaa/nv4500/np241/205/Hp d60/14bff/ 56" leafs front/rear. Recently got started on the frame work...the rest sits in it's corner.
Honestly, this is not hardcore fab stuff...this is stuff everyone should know before modifying their vehicle. (assuming vehicle is to be used on public roads) Like I said, if it doesn't see the road, go for it.
Depends how you intend to use it. I'm not out for anyone, if anything I'm trying to correct information that could get somebody hurt/killed. (again, assuming on road use)
@ Avery - I don't claim to know everything. That's why I made an account and posed the question in the first place. Any half way skilled body or frame shop can tell you exactly what I am. Technically, it would be considered ruined...do anything like this on your DD and try to insure it afterwards. Again, assuming your truck sees any road time, there are better/safer ways to do it.
I understand that most trucks won't see the stress required to actually tear the frame. But, what worries me (especially since this is a forum and people look here for advice) Is that these people do not have the experience to lay a solid weld in the first place...that coupled with bad technique is a recipe for disaster.
This is exactly why I have stayed off the forums until now. If someone is explaining to you exactly how your way if flawed and gives you technically sound explanations, why the hate?
I've seen lots of great fabricators on here, and by no means am I any better than anyone. But there are specific ways of welding to frame for a reason.
@ ryoken - I know you like lots of pics, I like your gallery's. There will be a pic heavy build thread comming...maybe not on ck5 : )
@ All - if you read my first post how is it aggressive at all? (besides the jab at KJ, but he deserved it)
Until I setup my sig...86 k5- As it sits, it's a busted ass m1009 with a blown 6.2 Detroit diesel. Been acquiring parts for the build...4btaa/nv4500/np241/205/Hp d60/14bff/ 56" leafs front/rear. Recently got started on the frame work...the rest sits in it's corner.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
To reiterate a point I made back in post 21, when you weld a piece of steel with an arc type weld, you heat the weld point past the anneal point.
Then it gets cooled quickly by the surrounding metal, causing a hardened area right next to a soft area causing a stress riser..................
BUT, you know what??
Steel is nice that way, because you can then reheat the area, let the heat flow to a wider area, and then let it cool gradually to eliminate that stress riser.
I don't have any welding certificates. Never applied for any, my talents were more toward engineering.
But I had the good fortune to learn from a couple of welders with pretty much every certificate there was.
Plus, as part of my engineering studies, I have studied strength of materials, static loading and dynamic loading, and metallurgy.
Not to mention a stint of blacksmithing.
A proper weld, using the correct techniques and metals, is as strong or stronger than the parent metal.
It does not matter if the weld is vertical, horizontal, or subtending through the 4th dimension.
Its possible to build something that creates stresses the material cannot handle, but the weld will not be the weak point.
I have welded parts, annealed them to totally soft while peening them to relieve stress, reheated them and quenched them in fresh water, salt water, or oil, depending on their composition and thickness.
Then carefully reheated them to "run the colors" and get them to the correct hardness for the job they had to do.
My welds don't crack. Either at the weld, or next to it at a "stress riser".
Anyone who says a weld is not as strong as the original material because the weld creates a heat hardened stress riser, does not understand how to properly weld, period.
Of course it creates a stress riser. Then you relieve it as part of the welding process that is as important as the weld its self.
Anyone who welds two parts together, and then complains because they cracked next to the weld because the weld did bad things to the metal, might as well just do a quick tack and then complain that the weld was not strong enough.
Its the same thing. The weld was not properly finished.
Then it gets cooled quickly by the surrounding metal, causing a hardened area right next to a soft area causing a stress riser..................
BUT, you know what??
Steel is nice that way, because you can then reheat the area, let the heat flow to a wider area, and then let it cool gradually to eliminate that stress riser.
I don't have any welding certificates. Never applied for any, my talents were more toward engineering.
But I had the good fortune to learn from a couple of welders with pretty much every certificate there was.
Plus, as part of my engineering studies, I have studied strength of materials, static loading and dynamic loading, and metallurgy.
Not to mention a stint of blacksmithing.
A proper weld, using the correct techniques and metals, is as strong or stronger than the parent metal.
It does not matter if the weld is vertical, horizontal, or subtending through the 4th dimension.
Its possible to build something that creates stresses the material cannot handle, but the weld will not be the weak point.
I have welded parts, annealed them to totally soft while peening them to relieve stress, reheated them and quenched them in fresh water, salt water, or oil, depending on their composition and thickness.
Then carefully reheated them to "run the colors" and get them to the correct hardness for the job they had to do.
My welds don't crack. Either at the weld, or next to it at a "stress riser".
Anyone who says a weld is not as strong as the original material because the weld creates a heat hardened stress riser, does not understand how to properly weld, period.
Of course it creates a stress riser. Then you relieve it as part of the welding process that is as important as the weld its self.
Anyone who welds two parts together, and then complains because they cracked next to the weld because the weld did bad things to the metal, might as well just do a quick tack and then complain that the weld was not strong enough.
Its the same thing. The weld was not properly finished.
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
Oh good, everybody is participating. lol
crazedyak
That Guy
I called a buddy who works at a body shop... he said your an a$$hole. I told him that was a strong comment. He said you're just to cocky to take seriously. I sort of see his point.
FRIZZLEFRY
1/2 ton status
Uhh you dont really have a point. Is the early 80s long enough ago? My work speaks for its self. Whacha got ?
Big words and spouting theory mean nothing .
M1009Bomber
Registered Member
Being studied in engineering and blacksmithing, you should know that Tempering is a little more precise than looking for color change.
Have fun doing that to your whole frame btw.
Never said the weld was not as strong as the parent metal. In fact I believe my whole point is the contrary.
Have fun doing that to your whole frame btw.
Never said the weld was not as strong as the parent metal. In fact I believe my whole point is the contrary.
FRIZZLEFRY
1/2 ton status
You should have quoted that post so as to git everyone up to speed since that was in 2009 n all
