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Welding on the frame

M1009Bomber said:
Being studied in engineering and blacksmithing, you should know that Tempering is a little more precise than looking for color change.

Have fun doing that to your whole frame btw.

Never said the weld was not as strong as the parent metal. In fact I believe my whole point is the contrary.
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Speaking of the point, what is it? Everybody stop welding **** on your frame?
 
Maybe a mod should just lock this thread and we can move on. This guy is obviously just a troll.


And a successful one at that.


p.s. My dad saw me reading this and decided to chime in. He has owned and operated his Metal fabrication business for 35 years now. All sorts of things go through that shop.

He said you were an Idiot. Some good points and some fancy jargon mixed in, but an idiot none-the-less
 
M1009Bomber said:
My point, is you should have picked up that book a long time ago.
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If you only knew who you were talking to.




So basically you have a pile of parts and some big dreams but you haven't actually built anything hence why you can't/won't post pictures of your outstanding work. :whistle:



NorCal_Chris said:
Maybe a mod should just lock this thread and we can move on. This guy is obviously just a troll.


And a successful one at that.
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Awh come on. We all know he'll go away eventually, let us have our fun for now. :)
 
M1009Bomber said:
Being studied in engineering and blacksmithing, you should know that Tempering is a little more precise than looking for color change.

Have fun doing that to your whole frame btw.

Never said the weld was not as strong as the parent metal. In fact I believe my whole point is the contrary.
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Being as my leg hurts, and I have to get up early to go to a tool and die shop and coincidentally work on a large heat treat oven after I get their Computer Milling Center working, I'll just make a couple of points.


First, I never said that I ran the colors on a frame. The last time I remember doing it was on a much smaller part.

Second, color change is a lot more accurate than you might realize if the person doing it has enough experience.
Plus, the reason you usually have to run colors, is because there is no way to get the part in question into a proper heat treat oven to run the correct heat soak profile.

I have seen people temper large load bearing pieces of steel after a weld by using color changes and a spring loaded punch to verify the hardness afterward.

You use the punch on a piece that has not seen heat, then on the tempered part and compare the dimples.
The idea is not to get the exact Rockwell hardness, but get it close enough to eliminate a too hard or soft situation.

And, just as a reminder, here is what you posted about the problems with vertical welds.........


To understand why vertical welds are in fact a bad thing, you need to understand how a ladder frame works and reacts to stress. Along with understanding what happens to metal during welding...

Ladder frames (our frames) have more potential to flex in-between weight supporting mounts along with more potential to twist in-between the rail...not so much potential flex from side to side (left to right).

When you weld (even plain old mild steel) you induce a dramatic heating and cooling that effects the areas adjacent to the weld. Doing this makes the metal less elastic, more brittle, and slightly weaker. Especially when joining different thickness materials (thicker acts as a heat-sink and pulls the heat out of the thinner (frame) even faster than welding materials of the same thickness) therefor making the thinner (frame) metal even more brittle.

Now, vertical welds are a problem in ladder framed vehicles because of the potential flex. Horizontal are not so much because they will not see the flex that a vertical weld will.
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So, if a weld is as strong as the original metal, which you just said was your point, how does a vertical weld weaken a frame?

Oh wait, I see, you did not know about normalizing a weld to eliminate the stress riser until I posted..........

Now I understand........

I'm going to bed. Life is too short to fish with a dead cricket....
 
So basically we are theorizing about stuff that pretty much has a factor of safety of 10 and will never see loads anywhere near enough to make it fail
 
M1009Bomber said:
You never know what you find people doing on the Internet...saw a guy on pirate claiming to be able to perfectly temper steel by color...figured you might be that guy : )
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So you claim you go the blacksmith skilz huh?

Never worked with any oil or water hardening material? Your heat is determined by the color in both the initial heat treating and drawing back.

But what do I know :confused:
 
M1009Bomber said:
To understand why vertical welds are in fact a bad thing, you need to understand how a ladder frame works and reacts to stress. Along with understanding what happens to metal during welding...

Ladder frames (our frames) have more potential to flex in-between weight supporting mounts along with more potential to twist in-between the rail...not so much potential flex from side to side (left to right).

When you weld (even plain old mild steel) you induce a dramatic heating and cooling that effects the areas adjacent to the weld. Doing this makes the metal less elastic, more brittle, and slightly weaker. Especially when joining different thickness materials (thicker acts as a heat-sink and pulls the heat out of the thinner (frame) even faster than welding materials of the same thickness) therefor making the thinner (frame) metal even more brittle.

Now, vertical welds are a problem in ladder framed vehicles because of the potential flex. Horizontal are not so much because they will not see the flex that a vertical weld will.

If you were to add a cage tied into a frame, you would be changing the ladder frame to something closer to a space frame. Thus eliminating alot of the
potential front to back and twisting flex...even then vertical welds are not ideal, because you're pre-fatiguing the frame with heat, and if you take a big hit you may end up with something being ripped off right next to your vertical
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Pretty much sums it up. I don't know how to break it down any easier.

As I said before...it's your truck, do what you want. If you want something that "should" be ok, Or "probably" won't fall apart, go for it.

As for all the unwarranted personal attacks towards me...let's keep it classy ck5. This is nothing more than an electronic discussion afterall.

Never claimed to have any blacksmithing skills, but I do know you're playing a guessing game unless you have controlled temperature. There are ovens big enough to fit vehicle frames, but those are big $$$

And for anyone who cites expierence as the deciding factor in whether or not something is built correctly...we can agree to disagree, and I know that from experience.
 
M1009Bomber said:
And for anyone who cites expierence as the deciding factor in whether or not something is built correctly...we can agree to disagree, and I know that from experience.
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Your experience tells you that people with experience don't know that they're doing just because they have experience.... got it! :D:D:D





This is getting too good! :popcorn:
 
If it helps...visualize each frame rail as an "I" beam...the top and bottom pieces take most of the stress, and the middle portion connects them...if you lose support (say from a massive crack through the entire middle portion) your top and bottom pieces lose all their rigidity...that's when your k5 folds up taco style.

Let's say you take a big hit to the driver's rocker support/shield/slider that you welded onto the frame with square mounts. The hit could bust the slider and portions of the frame it's welded to off, or maybe you get lucky and it just cracks...hit a big enough pothole/get into an accident, and you're frame folds up like a lawn chair.

Again, it depends how you intend to use your truck. "good enough" might actually be good enough. If it's a trail truck, let the welds fly (the yota guys do worse just repairing rust)
 
Avery4jc said:
Your experience tells you that people with experience don't know that they're doing just because they have experience.... got it! :D:D:D





This is getting too good! :popcorn:
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Not at all.

The experience im talking about was a coworkers project...boxed the frame on a 32 chevy pickup...did it in small one foot sections...guess what? Every vertical weld towards the middle of the chassis is cracked, and every horizontal weld is still good.

How's that for experience? Plus it's actually experience that is relevant to the discussion at hand.
 
M1009Bomber said:
Never claimed to have any blacksmithing skills, but I do know you're playing a guessing game unless you have controlled temperature.
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Oops sorry :doah: I took your little jab at me as saying you wuz schoold in engineerin and blacksmithing .

And no,you dont know. Its not a guessing game. The Rockwell tester doesnt lie .
And Im going on the record as saying you dont know sh*t in the grand scheme of things based on what you have posted up to this point.

Still waiting for you to wow and amaze us :woot:

And Im done feeding the troll :thumb:
 
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