When do you need 35 spline stubs for a 60?

[mikey_d05]

I don't think anyone on this board has seen me drive on the actual trail, (Drey, Kert, and Stomper saw me crush cars) but I abuse my truck because I know the winch will get it on the trailer. ( ) My 30 spliners have held up so far. I keep a full set of spares and better than 50% of what I wheel is slippery stuff but Gilbert has some pretty grippy rocks and I'm not afraid to get on it up there either. I'll go to 35 spline some day, and if it's only $200 more than what you need, I would do it. However, right now my setup is good enough for me.

 

[Paxx]

Dope, I just read your sig. Got any pic's?

Nope not yet. But I will be at the BB this year. Hopefully you will still be in the country. It would be good to get in a few more trails with you.

 

[stallion85]

Nope not yet. But I will be at the BB this year. Hopefully you will still be in the country. It would be good to get in a few more trails with you.

Definitely, I have to make it just to see your K5 now

 

[mrk5]

I didn't think you were replying to me . I basically just made that post for those guys who have seen me defend my front axle. I basically wanted to let everyone know that it was a damn good axle and it has served me well. Time to pass it on to my buds Heep

Don't mind my earlier comments, Jeff. I was just player hatin'.

 

[Paxx]

Can't wait!

 

[ProJunkRacing]

I don't really get it either. The front D60 is supposed to be the Holy Grail of wheelin, but oh no you gotta have 35 spline outers, bigger shaft u-joints, slugs, etc... In my opinion I'd through a locker in there and run it like it is with 37s.

If you do all the extras, don't be silly - like a certain CK5er I know - and leave the 1310 yoke on the axle.

yeah that is how i am . I welded my 60 , and put cheap full hydro on it cost me a total of like 75 dollars. i paid 700 for the axle why pay more. i have been looking for gears as i currently have 4.10's with 44's but the 465 makes up for it a bit but other than gears i will upgrade when i need to .

 

[K5er4Life]

I'm keepin my D60 build nice and simple. I found a clean 60 that just needed brake pads and the rotors turned. So far I've added ORD crossover and I'm just going to throw a lockrite in there and call it good. Just going to wheel the **** out of it till I break parts then upgrade as I break.

dude thats the way to do it...however I do need new lockouts, so you convinced me to do drive flanges and I figured while Im at it might as well upgrade right to 35 spline, right? But what does it matter, I still need gears, locker, and a front d-shaft before that 60 is ready anyways.

HEY, WHEN ARE YOU GETTING YOUR GEARS A-HOLE? Im not gonna stop bothering you until I see some progress.

 

[78Buford]

From what I have read over the past several years, a bone stock D60 front axle is reliable to 38’s. I’m talking on average here, so please spare me the tales of “My brother’s uncle’s friend knew of this guy who had 56” ag tires on his Ford/Chevy/Dodge D60, and it never broke!” Anything larger than 38’s and one often starts breaking parts on a regular basis. Vehicle weight is an important variable. A D60 with stock parts under a 4000 pound or less Jeep/Buggy will live longer than the same axle under a 6000-7000 pound truck. What I have broke/wore out/upgraded on mine in the past three years of wheeling it:

Wheeled the stock front D60 (Powertrax Lock-Right for a locker) with 38’s from June 2003 to April 2004. Upgraded to 35 spline Spicer stubs (had to have GM outers cut down to 11.4” to work on the Ford).

From April 2004 to December 2004, nothing else broke/failed with 38’s.

Went to 42’s in December of 2005. Broke the 1310 D-shaft U-joint (at the T-case) in January 2005, upgraded to 1410’s.

Broke the Lock-Right (stripped in reverse, still worked going forwards) in March of 2005. Ordered a Detroit & installed it. The Lockright was still within the 2 year warranty period, and Richmond sent me a brand new one without hassle. I sold it on ebay for $299…helped offset the $460 Detroit.

At the time, I had 35 spline outers, drive flanges, one fat inner shaft, and one neck down inner shaft. Before going to KY, I upgraded the neckdown inner to a new fat Spicer inner.

In August of 2005, I broke the driver side D60 knuckle. This bit the root…not fun to get it off the trail…at all. This was the only trail failure that I’ve had in this truck that required help to get it off the trail….and this required a helluva lotta help! I upgraded to Dedenbear forged knuckles later that month.

Nothing else broke/failed until April 2006,

OK, let me add this. Last summer I noted that the ears were getting “wallowed out” on all of the front axles. Before a difficult ride in November 2005, I had a buddy weld all of the joint caps into the axles with the clear thought of, they’re never coming out of there…when one breaks, it’s going to get alloy’s and bling U-joints.

Back to April 2006: I broke a 35 spline stub. (I ran trashed spindle bearings in the past for “too ling” and this chewed up the bearing surface of the axle, near the yoke…this is where it broke).

After the stub failure, I upgraded Longfield 300M U-joints, and Yukon 4340 axles.

Bottom line: When wheeled hard on a regular basis, under a heavy rig, stock D60 parts will break.

Roy

 

[85mudblazin]

A stock D60 has the same size stubs as a 10b/d44. The upgrade you are getting from a 10b/d44 to a stock D60, is the bigger inners, joints, and r&p.

Now Sure there are the people that say "ow if I break a stub ill just swap in a new one", that gets old VERY fast. If you are to the point to where you are break shafts in your d44 then the upgrade is a must.

I thought about going to chromo outers but decided there wasnt much of a point to it if I was running stock inners/joints.

The biggest failure point in a 60 is the ears on the shafts. Almost evertime some one breaks them its because the joint had a cap walk out and it blew up from there.

SO when I installed mine I tacked all of the caps to the shafts and havent had one problem since. Thats with alot of hard wheeling on VERY grippy rock (granite). If you decide to upgrade to chromos in the 60 just do them all. If you have a chromo stub and say a joint breaks its going to take out that nice new stub.

But back to the 30 spline hub thing, also remeber that alot of times when the actual shaft breaks its going to take out the hub and can even take out spindals.

 

[az-k5]

Don't jump on the bandwagon!!!! Don't. With 37's my D60 never flinched. I did hammer it up pretty well. With 40's I have broken one 30 spline stub but that was when I was really bound and hit tried to throttle out. I would do the 30 spline cro-mo if you really want to not worry. They are as strong as a 35 spline stock but you can keep your stronger 30 spine hubs.

 

[jekbrown]

I understand the reasoning behind the "run it 'till it breaks" mentality... but I don't subscribe to the theory. Sometimes, when something in the front axle breaks, it takes a lot of other parts with it. Last thing I need is a blown detroit, inner etc and a shortened wheelin' trip just because I didn't feel like upgrading my stubs. Its a cheap drivetrain part really.... if you don't want to upgrade something as minor as that, stick with a 10 bolt.

j

 

[az-k5]

I am not a subscriber of build it in the garage till you have every bling part possible and they are now out of date so you have to start all over. I am a fan of knowing limits. Nothing annoys me more than watching a guy beat on his junk just cause he was told it was the strongest thing out there. I also hate that there is some underlying sediment that you can't wheel unless you are in the big dawg world. (Not saying that is your perspective J).

 

[85mudblazin]

I am not a subscriber of build it in the garage till you have every bling part possible and they are now out of date so you have to start all over. I am a fan of knowing limits. Nothing annoys me more than watching a guy beat on his junk just cause he was told it was the strongest thing out there. I also hate that there is some underlying sediment that you can't wheel unless you are in the big dawg world. (Not saying that is your perspective J).

So your saying that having this "limit" makes wheeling more fun?? Well jeez maybe ill go back to 10b so I can have a lower limit which would make it funner to wheel.

I hate having a weak link, I cant stand backing out of a spot that I could make if I had that one stronger part. I want to be able to go out for a weekend and beat the piss out of my truck without fear of breaking. With stronger/better parts you can do/try bigger climbs.

Its all about how much fun you want to have. For me wheeling is going out and trying climbs that no one has ever made or crawling that crack thats rolled every rig, I dont want to have to go around this stuff because of weak parts.

My .02 take it for what its worth.

 

[az-k5]

So your saying that having this "limit" makes wheeling more fun??

If that is the difference between using your junk with a weak link or letting it sit in the garage till you remove all possible weak links than yes I find that more fun.

 

[chopped&bobbed77burb]

I've been running my d60 with just the stock inners (non necked down version) and the stock 30 spline outers with factory warn hub's . Keep in mind I'm still open up front and I'm running 42" swampers . I've been pretty mean to it But I have not wedged the front tire between 2 big rocks and hammered on it . I've got some spare stock axles and I need to gets some spare hubs because I know it's gonna break . I just don't known when . I'm still running the 4:10 gears so I'm going to spend my money on 5:13 gears FIRST and then I will go for the cromo stuff and Longfeild 300m's . In reality though , with a big rig like mine that's maybe pushing 7000lbs I would be better off and money ahead to just step up to rockwell axles and be done with it . For now I'm gonna wheel with the stock stuff had carry spares & be a little nicer to it . I was going to go with a lockrite up front but I have seen some carnage with a few running 39.5 tires on 3500-4000lb rig and stock inner axles and 35 spline outers w/ drive flanges .

 

[jekbrown]

I am not a subscriber of build it in the garage till you have every bling part possible and they are now out of date so you have to start all over. I am a fan of knowing limits. Nothing annoys me more than watching a guy beat on his junk just cause he was told it was the strongest thing out there. I also hate that there is some underlying sediment that you can't wheel unless you are in the big dawg world. (Not saying that is your perspective J).

good points all. As much as I try to avoid it, I often slide into the "web wheeler" mentality. Part of it is that I have very little time to actually go offroad with my rig... another part is that I like working / tinkering / designing my rig almost as much as I like driving it. These are powerful forces which are hard to vanquish, the multitudes of web wheelers here and on pirate can attest to that.

As others mentioned, I'm not a big fan of intentional weak links. If you beef something up and a part breaks... beef that specific part up etc until the next weak-link-failure never materializes. Newer blingy-er parts will always be coming out, and continuously upgrading is a very expensive technique even if you don't break any parts. At some point, a balance must be reached which is based on your budget (of time and money), your right foot and what you want your truck to be able to do.

j

 

[MaxPF]

A stock D60 has the same size stubs as a 10b/d44. The upgrade you are getting from a 10b/d44 to a stock D60, is the bigger inners, joints, and r&p.

Negative. The stock 30 spline D60 stubs are bigger than 19 spline D44/10b stubs. For comparison, stock D60 stubs measure 1.312 at the splines and 1.250 at the shaft. A D44/10b stub measures 1.155 at the splines and 1.125 at the shaft. Here's a pic of the two side by side:

Interestingly, the International Scout used 30 spline stubs on their D44's from 73 to 80. 30 spline (1.312" diameter) shafts will physically fit through D44 spindles, although I don't know if the same stub bearing can be used, or if International used a different spindle with a larger bearing. In any case, 30-spline lockouts are unobtanium, so you would have to use drive flanges. This makes them pretty much useless for a daily driver, IMO.

 

[85mudblazin]

OK no they arent EXACTLY the same size but whats a few hundreths

Heres my comparison shot.

 

[MaxPF]

.190" is a substantial difference in strength. It gives the D60 shaft 40% more area than the D44/10b stub, and is therefore 40-45% stronger.

 

[6.2Blazer]

.190" is a substantial difference in strength. It gives the D60 shaft 40% more area than the D44/10b stub, and is therefore 40-45% stronger.

I was going to post something along this line. Also keep in mind that the increased splines (30 vs. 19) and the increased length of the Dana 60 stub make it much stronger in real life than a 10-bolt or D44 stub.

I chose to replace my stock 30-spline stubs with the Yukon chromo 35-spline stubs even though I had regular Spicer inners and u-joints. Why?? Well because it only cost an extra $50 to get the Yukons, so why not. I also did not see the reason the get Spicer stubs because of the yoke issue (ears stretch out over time), and even though the 35-spline stubs are the same dia. and spline count they still are much shorter than the inner axles and therefore need to be a stronger material to hold up as well.

For breakage, again I broke 2 30-spline Spicer stubs and the only damage was that they trashed the spindle bearing. Granted they could have caused other issues (like trashing the spindle) but obviously bigger issues don't alway occur.

Also along those lines, people can say "run the stock stuff and just replace it on the trail when it breaks"...........obviously these guys have never regularly had to replace a certain component because fixing a rig on the trail sucks, and it sucks for everybody in your group as they sit around waiting on you. Sure, if you are playing in the mud or someplace to can easily run back to camp and fix while the others keep running it's not a big deal, but most of the trails I have been on it stops the whole group and it's no fun for anyone.

For "weak points" in a vehicle, I guess it just depends on what each individual person opinion is on the subject. I personally don't seen any reason to intentional design in a weak point, but you should also know what the "weakest" point (or the part most likely to break first) is and plan accordingly. If you have a "weakest" part that fails every once in awhile than that's just part of the game, if you have a true weak point that breaks and you have to repair every trailride then that just sucks and you should upgrade or stay home. There have been people in our club that broke the same part almost every trailride......needless to say nobody wants to trailride with that person anymore. Maybe a more accurate explanation is that if you KNOW a part will definitely break, than you need to do something about it.