Can I get an AMEN BROTHER!
Sorry, I have a deepseated hatred of those, especially flathead wood screws as used by my otherwise-very-talented-at-woodworking father
-- A
CK5
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Where can I buy bulk "red" butt connectors?
- Thread starter y5mgisi
- Start date
Can I get an AMEN BROTHER!
Sorry, I have a deepseated hatred of those, especially flathead wood screws as used by my otherwise-very-talented-at-woodworking father
-- A
I usually just use a small butane torch, similar to what is used in the kitchen for crème brulee type things.
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Ryoken, i hear you! I thought soldering was the best option all the time until i got into the avaition business and learned all the reasons why solder can be bad. There are still some places where i would like to do both, but completely agree that a crimp is more than adaquite and actually better than a solder joint in most cases. The number one reason for my desire for the sleevless connectors is so that i can crimp and then shrink over the crimp. I just like the metal on metal of the crimping tool on the connector i guess.
Then get the crimps i recommended early with built in heat shrink
That being said, my HF heat gun has been working its ass off for years on my rig, numerous boat stereo installs, complete rewire of 2 FJ's, etc.
For $10, its hard to go wrong.
yup, obviously there are higher quality units, but for that money, our work ones has been going for 4 yrs.. gives ya sh*t, whack it on a table and it starts working!
Can I get an AMEN BROTHER!
Sorry, I have a deepseated hatred of those, especially flathead wood screws as used by my otherwise-very-talented-at-woodworking father
-- A
right... I'm not restoring a 1913 desk dammit... and believe me, I've worked on enough 50's and 60's woodboats that I've seen TONS.. and obviously had to reuse as often as possible for appearance sake..
bigred88
1/2 ton status
eh, I'll be devil's advocate and see how many "f*ck you's" I can stir up....bring it....
soldering is WAY overrated in vehicle wiring IMO.. it has it's place, but also has it's own quality pitfalls too... you wont see d*ck in the way of solder work, on the biggest of boats, certified by the CG...
the only thing I solder is circuit board and radar stuff... the CG wants the proper mechanical connection.. period... certain shorts can melt out solder...
I know that'll offend all the oldschool guys who swear they are "doing the best possible work"...
it's just not true.. soldering heat stress and corrosion are far more of a corrosion/fail issue than a failed crimp.. proper tool and quality products assumed...
and honestly, factoring in a "money making biz" it's far from cost-effective.. soldering is STUPID time consuming...
To be fair, I've had a couple soldered joints fail, but that was when I was first learning soldering, and I'm pretty sure I did a crappy job. And yes, it is stupid time consuming. And I've never used anything but the autozone standard butt connectors, so I'm sure that a higher quality connector (like with heat shrink on it) would perform better.
But solder won't really corrode if you've sealed it properly with heat shrink, right?
Honest question. And what kind of damage can heat stress do? Not gonna stir up any eff yous from me- I know exactly how much experience I have (which would be a fraction of yours, considering my age and that this is only a hobby for me, not a job). I'm always up for a good discussion.
Stomis
Professional Amateur
Blick on built in heat shrink connectors. My vote goes to bare metal crimps and separate heat shrink after!
To be fair, I've had a couple soldered joints fail, but that was when I was first learning soldering, and I'm pretty sure I did a crappy job. And yes, it is stupid time consuming. And I've never used anything but the autozone standard butt connectors, so I'm sure that a higher quality connector (like with heat shrink on it) would perform better.
But solder won't really corrode if you've sealed it properly with heat shrink, right?
Not gonna stir up any eff yous from me- I know exactly how much experience I have (which would be a fraction of yours, considering my age and that this is only a hobby for me, not a job). I'm always up for a good discussion.
first.. I'm not saying it's hack... choice between between a properly soldered and shrunk vs cheesy plastic crimp? I'll take the good solder job anyday..
but it isn't just a "sealed well with shrinktube" corrosion issue.. soldering can introduce chemical properties into the wire end that make it subsceptable to turning green.. corroding and failing... well shrunk may hold it off some, but it can still happen.. I've seen extreme examples of stuff.. well soldered, decade old connections that are now soooo puffy with green fluff, they've stretched the shrinktube out..
whereas heat stress to the wire can cause brittleness in the adjacent wire.. thus why you occasionally see soldered connections fail immediately adjacent to the solder.. obviously wire quality, tinned, strand count all come into play...
it's just a legend I like to debunk a bit... I know a ton of 50 yr old dudes that say the same thing... makes em feel good about their work I suppose..
I'm just pointing out what a hardcore environment, massive experience view has found...
trust me, car connections will never be abused like marine stuff... under your dash? your pretty safe from weather.. but a lot of the same concerns still apply.. and down at your starter? I'll go with the marine approach, fo sure....
OK, what the heck, I thought I had already straightened this one out...........
Ryoken is almost 100% right. CG and most boat builders stay way away from soldered butt splices and other wire connections.
Butt, ( had to do that) the failure cause is not heat stress, its a stress riser effect like you get with welds, but in this case, its the abrupt change from flexible copper wire to a hard soldered chunk.
Since the solder wicks up the wire and stops suddenly, you have a stress point which will break if there is a lot of flex.
There have been a lot of studies of connections. I read up on them many years ago.
Even a well crimped connection, has a slight amount of give and is a longer stress point than solder.
Which spreads the loads.
The trick to a reliable crimp connection is in the crimp, of course. If you cut apart a proper crimp lengthwise and look at it under a microscope, you would see that it is more than a simple mechanical connection.
Properly done, the two metals, the wire and the connector actually flow and displace the surface from each other exposing the pure metal.
This creates a gas tight "weld" as the two metals tend to bond as a vacuum weld.
If anyone is really really interested, I might try to find some of that info on the web.
When I read it, it was in books.
Personally, when I want it to be absolutely certain, I spring for the special crimp/self-soldering/shrink fittings.
You stick the two wire ends in until they are hard up against the solder bead. Crimp them with the proper tool.
Heat them with a heat gun.
The solder melts and solders the ends together. The solder does not go past the crimp, so there is no stress riser.
Then the inner liner of the heat shrink melts, and is compressed down into the whole fitting and out the ends as the tubing shrinks.
Forcing out all air and giving a total seal.
But they are expensive......
Oh, and the corrosion problem? Yep, see that in electronics all the time. But its because someone used either the wrong type, or too aggressive a flux.
Even with salt spray, some fluxes just will not corrode. But, under those conditions, some will that otherwise do not.
FWIW, my offshore boat has almost all crimped connections that I did. Here and there I have solder, but its special places, and the wire is bonded so it cannot move with vibration.
Ryoken is almost 100% right. CG and most boat builders stay way away from soldered butt splices and other wire connections.
Butt, ( had to do that) the failure cause is not heat stress, its a stress riser effect like you get with welds, but in this case, its the abrupt change from flexible copper wire to a hard soldered chunk.
Since the solder wicks up the wire and stops suddenly, you have a stress point which will break if there is a lot of flex.
There have been a lot of studies of connections. I read up on them many years ago.
Even a well crimped connection, has a slight amount of give and is a longer stress point than solder.
Which spreads the loads.
The trick to a reliable crimp connection is in the crimp, of course. If you cut apart a proper crimp lengthwise and look at it under a microscope, you would see that it is more than a simple mechanical connection.
Properly done, the two metals, the wire and the connector actually flow and displace the surface from each other exposing the pure metal.
This creates a gas tight "weld" as the two metals tend to bond as a vacuum weld.
If anyone is really really interested, I might try to find some of that info on the web.
When I read it, it was in books.
Personally, when I want it to be absolutely certain, I spring for the special crimp/self-soldering/shrink fittings.
You stick the two wire ends in until they are hard up against the solder bead. Crimp them with the proper tool.
Heat them with a heat gun.
The solder melts and solders the ends together. The solder does not go past the crimp, so there is no stress riser.
Then the inner liner of the heat shrink melts, and is compressed down into the whole fitting and out the ends as the tubing shrinks.
Forcing out all air and giving a total seal.
But they are expensive......
Oh, and the corrosion problem? Yep, see that in electronics all the time. But its because someone used either the wrong type, or too aggressive a flux.
Even with salt spray, some fluxes just will not corrode. But, under those conditions, some will that otherwise do not.
FWIW, my offshore boat has almost all crimped connections that I did. Here and there I have solder, but its special places, and the wire is bonded so it cannot move with vibration.
rampage
3/4 ton status
Back when I was in an electronics manufacturing facility repairing circuit boards, after we soldered we would always clean the excess burnt flux with rubbing alcohol and a cotton swab. Whenever I can I clean my solder joints with rubbing alcohol and a stiff bristled brush, old tooth brush or wire brush to get rid of any excess flux which, depending on what type of flux you use, can cause corrosion. I've never had a problem on my circuit boards or plumbing connections yet.
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Anyone else tried to go get *electrical* flux lately, and failed? I don't have a radio shack nearby, but I had an impossible time finding electrical wiring flux last time I looked. Had to buy it online, and even that is tough. Much of it just says soldering flux, does not differentiate between wiring and plumbing, and I suspect the majority of it is actually for plumbing. And the garbage coming out of China? Who knows what the heck is in it?
I was working on some low voltage stuff awhile back (2.5V) and having a heck of a time trying to figure out why an LED setup wasn't working. For some reason ended up cutting off the shrink tube I had used after soldering a small joint, and found that the wire, which was not exposed to anything but some inland humidity (no salt air) had corroded to the point the wire strands broke with minimal pressure. No idea what exactly caused it, but since nothing I soldered long before had any problems, I can only suspect the flux I used.
There is some research out there from NASA too which refutes soldered joints as I recall. Inline with FAA and CG stuff apparently. Crimping makes life easier, I'm happy to hear this info.
bigred88
1/2 ton status
Ok, so this is going even more off topic, but I think the original question has been answered, so...
What do you guys do when you have to recreate an original factory splice where four or five wires of different gauges come together?
What do you guys do when you have to recreate an original factory splice where four or five wires of different gauges come together?
Aren't these pretty similar to what GM used? http://www.ebay.com/itm/271154984007#ht_1440wt_1162 I'd have to look at my wiring, they might have used slightly different, but I don't think it would matter. I'll defer to those who do this more often.
If you have room, which you usually don't, the best way is individual ring terminals and a stud terminal.
Next best, is a bar with clamp screws.
Otherwise, you can use a butt splice rated for the total size of all the wires divided by two.
Put half in each side.
Other than that, the factory uses specialized connectors that take different size wires on each end.
There are some companies that specialize in factory type connectors.
I had some bookmarked, only see this one right now.....
http://www.kayjayco.com/catPConnectors.htm
I use waytekwire.com and delcity.net for bulk electrical.
Well at least in my case, if you want to keep wire colors the same, it's impossible since you can't buy the factory wiring by the spool, at least not that I've found. Or, if you are trying to use connectors with pigtails when you don't have the proper terminals to re-do the connector.
Found the site I was looking for. Explore this one, and I suspect you will find several options to solve your problem.
From repairing what you have, to finding a replacement connector, to rewiring like factory.
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Se...ing=Y&sort=13&search=gm&show=45&page=1&cat=88
They even have the crimp/solder/shrink connectors. But I have seen them cheaper.
Definitely brings up some colors that I don't see real often on the shelves, but unfortunately I don't see any of the pink/blk stripe, or blue/ylw stripe, or any of the other craziness that GM used depending on which application you are dealing with.
Someone must make that stuff for GM, who is it? Sorry OP, didn't mean to take this way off topic. But when you can avoid splices by running new wire and the correct terminals, do it.
Someone must make that stuff for GM, who is it? Sorry OP, didn't mean to take this way off topic. But when you can avoid splices by running new wire and the correct terminals, do it.
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