CK5
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why diesel?
- Thread starter kyle.rj133
- Start date
I don't know if you can truly say that cubes for cubes a diesel will always make more power.
You take a modern diesel and pump it up to 1500 lbs ft and 800 hp and take the same gas motor and do the same. Well I guess it would be really hard to do the same because of how each engine works. The gas motor would be more like 1500 HP and 800 lbs ft of torque. But the diesel would last longer at those power levels.
As far as racing goes though I will almost always take a gas motor because simply put the gas motor is usually in a car that weighs 3500 lbs and the diesel is in a truck that weighs 7k or more.
I have raced a couple buddys in my car (Pontiac grand prix GTP) that is totally stock. One guy has a dyno proven 800 lbs ft at the rear wheels. Truck is stock height, stock tire size and he launched in 4 wd. He never put more than a car length on me. We only raced to about 85 but I started reeling him in at about 65.
Diesel to gas are two totally different animals, they each have strengths and weaknesses.
because it would look plain weird seeing one pull a trailer
One of the coolest things I ever saw was a guy pulling into Moab with a pretty sweet old CJ-5, he was towing it with an old Cadillac. Nothing was trashed either I got to talk to him later that week. Caddy had the 500 of course and he said with airbags it tows like a dream. Guy even had a gear vendors on the TH400
DEMON44
Low-Tech Redneck
In my dodge, I could pull on the top end, just about anything on the road save for bikes, supercars, and dedicated drag cars/ It was pretty awesome. tons of fun. it was a stick truck, so from a dig was tough. but 60mph plus it was a rocket. 
and really. you can make 800ftlbs in a 12v or any cummins, almost by accident. thats not exactly a high powered rig. its not even a medium powered rig actually 
and really. you can make 800ftlbs in a 12v or any cummins, almost by accident. thats not exactly a high powered rig. its not even a medium powered rig actually 
Power is measured by horsepower (and other things), torque has absolutely nothing to do with power. The difference was explained in my last post, I'll try to find time to elaborate tomorrow.
63chevyll
1/2 ton status
Yup, Damn morons all over. I've Ben eyeing the auctions and seen more rollover new diesels than a few years ago
In my dodge, I could pull on the top end, just about anything on the road save for bikes, supercars, and dedicated drag cars/ It was pretty awesome. tons of fun. it was a stick truck, so from a dig was tough. but 60mph plus it was a rocket.
Not saying my car can beat a way modded truck, 800 at the rear wheels is nothing to laugh at
Just using it as an example. Over 100 mph the aerodynamics of a car start to be a HUGE advantage
Diesel to Gas comparisons will always happen but I don't think they are apples to apples comparisons. Yes they are both internal combustion engines. Yes they have the same basic components, but from there they are two different animals. Shoot they are guys getting 4 bangers to 500 HP easy nowadays.
400 Hp small blocks are common. I mean damn a new V-6 camaro puts down 300 horse. I remember back in the day when only a Ferrari or Lambo or high end Porsche was putting down those numbers. Muscle cars were long gone when I was growing up. All we had were smogged down crap.
I love that diesel guys push the limits. But if I put some serious money into a car and you put some serious money into your truck, I am going to kick your trash. My car won't be able to tow sure but I can beat you in a race.
the v6 now days are better than the v8 back in the day. (im only 18 so not for sure)
The short answer is diesel. Diesel fuel in itself contains more btu's than the same measure of gas.
I thought this was a good addition to the pissing match we're having, HA! :
Let’s say we're trying to decide between Engine A and Engine B for a high-performance car. Here's a chart showing the peak power and torque for each engine:
Power, hp Torque, ft-lbf
Engine A 224 300
Engine B 247 210
At first glance, Engine B looks like the better choice – it has 23 more peak horsepower! However, now let's look at a graph of the power curves of these two engines, showing their power as a function of engine speed.
Notice that although Engine B has more peak horsepower, Engine A has more power at speeds up to 5500 rpm. What's more, it has significantly more power in the 1500-4000 rpm range (highlighted area), the range of engine speeds in which you'd typically operate a car.
Now let's look at the torque curves of the two engines:
We see that Engine A puts out much greater torque, especially over the typical engine speed range, indicating that under normal conditions Engine A will give you much more “oomph” than Engine B. Peak numbers are nice to brag about but often don't mean much, since few people operate their engines at peak conditions (which would generally be full throttle) in a typical day.
More found here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2215/whats-the-difference-between-horsepower-and-torque
Let’s say we're trying to decide between Engine A and Engine B for a high-performance car. Here's a chart showing the peak power and torque for each engine:
Power, hp Torque, ft-lbf
Engine A 224 300
Engine B 247 210
At first glance, Engine B looks like the better choice – it has 23 more peak horsepower! However, now let's look at a graph of the power curves of these two engines, showing their power as a function of engine speed.
Notice that although Engine B has more peak horsepower, Engine A has more power at speeds up to 5500 rpm. What's more, it has significantly more power in the 1500-4000 rpm range (highlighted area), the range of engine speeds in which you'd typically operate a car.
Now let's look at the torque curves of the two engines:
We see that Engine A puts out much greater torque, especially over the typical engine speed range, indicating that under normal conditions Engine A will give you much more “oomph” than Engine B. Peak numbers are nice to brag about but often don't mean much, since few people operate their engines at peak conditions (which would generally be full throttle) in a typical day.
More found here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2215/whats-the-difference-between-horsepower-and-torque
You are right on.
If you try and get real simple with it, go back to the beginning. A "HP" was the amount of work one horse could do in an hour. The strength of the horse is the torque. If you have a pony, your torque is lower and it will only be able to pull a small plow, etc. If you have a Clydesdale, you still have one HP but the animal can pull a much larger plow than a pony.
This is the simple reason why if you take say, a 2006 Chevy 2500HD with 15K trailer up a steep long grade with a 6.0. small block, vs. the optional Duramax diesel. We all know the Dmax will make it to the top of that hill first. But, doesn't those two engines both make around 350HP or something, so if HP is everything, and torque has nothing to do with power, than why does the Dmax outrun it's gas counterpart with the same HP? Because the torque is much different, and you could load the Dmax up even heavier to a point where both trucks pull the hill at the same mph. The difference is the Dmax is hauling more weight and getting more work done than it's counterpart because it's got so much more torque.
People get all caught up in HP numbers, partly because it's what the manufacturers have pushed for decades. In my diesel pickup, I want good HP, but mainly LOTS of torque because there is a lot of work to be done, the truck is heavy even without a trailer. If I wanted to make a Honda go fast, I'd want LOTS of HP and adequate torque because there isn't much work to be done since the car is very small and light, but I want that HP to make it build it's torque quickly so I can get the torque to do it's work much, much quicker.
If you try and get real simple with it, go back to the beginning. A "HP" was the amount of work one horse could do in an hour. The strength of the horse is the torque. If you have a pony, your torque is lower and it will only be able to pull a small plow, etc. If you have a Clydesdale, you still have one HP but the animal can pull a much larger plow than a pony.
This is the simple reason why if you take say, a 2006 Chevy 2500HD with 15K trailer up a steep long grade with a 6.0. small block, vs. the optional Duramax diesel. We all know the Dmax will make it to the top of that hill first. But, doesn't those two engines both make around 350HP or something, so if HP is everything, and torque has nothing to do with power, than why does the Dmax outrun it's gas counterpart with the same HP? Because the torque is much different, and you could load the Dmax up even heavier to a point where both trucks pull the hill at the same mph. The difference is the Dmax is hauling more weight and getting more work done than it's counterpart because it's got so much more torque.
People get all caught up in HP numbers, partly because it's what the manufacturers have pushed for decades. In my diesel pickup, I want good HP, but mainly LOTS of torque because there is a lot of work to be done, the truck is heavy even without a trailer. If I wanted to make a Honda go fast, I'd want LOTS of HP and adequate torque because there isn't much work to be done since the car is very small and light, but I want that HP to make it build it's torque quickly so I can get the torque to do it's work much, much quicker.
Not necessarily a great analogy, 1 horsepower is 33,000 ft lbs/min and has been defined like that for at least 100 years. I get what you're trying to say but...
If both of those vehicles are geared such that they are at the same speed and are at the RPM of their peak power, they will pull exactly the same. Power is power, regardless of what the torque numbers are because speed can be traded for torque via gears.
Now, in the real world, the diesel will pull MUCH better and the reason is this: the gas motor isn't geared nearly deep enough.
Let's say the diesel makes it's peak power at 2000 RPM and the gas motor makes peak power at 4000. If the diesel is geared at 3.42, the gas motor would need nearly a 7:1 gear ratio to be at it's peak power at the same speed. Of course you would never use a ratio that low due to fuel economy, and in reality the gas motor would drop down to a lower gear than the diesel and by being in say, second, instead of third like the diesel it's using it's power leveraged via gears to make up for some of that lower torque coming from the motor.
That's what makes diesel motors so great, they make tons of power at a usable RPM range. Their peak torque and cruising RPM ranges are close and their ideal power and economy gears are basically the same.
Again, didn't mean to step on any toes and I have a turbo diesel for a tow rig so I'm very much aware of how awesome they are at their jobs
I can see where you are coming from. Unless I'm missing something, if the diesel is geared with 3.42's and the gas engine was geared much lower to compensate for the gas engine needing to run at 4K instead of 2K like the diesel, in theory they would travel at the same speed. The difference I see is in real life it doesn't work out that way. On the hill, a 6.0.L can just downshift and run in it's happy 4K+ range, but it still can't muster up the same MPH as the same truck with a Dmax would. I would presume anyway. I'm definitely no expert.
I don't know... i'm a hotrodder.. i work on a ton of dizzles, respect the tech and capabilities.. 20 yrs ago, we wouldn't be having this discussion... diesels where heavy turds... early 90's saw HUGE power increases in dizzles..
but I'm a hotrodder at heart... 70's muscle cars with big horse gassers... at 20 yrs old, in 1985, i would have never considered a dizzle in just about anything... guess that doesn't die easy..
but I'm a hotrodder at heart... 70's muscle cars with big horse gassers... at 20 yrs old, in 1985, i would have never considered a dizzle in just about anything... guess that doesn't die easy..
Thats where I am at too dude. Diesels are cool and can make a ton of power.
But I just prefer a gas motor for a car, unless its a gas mileage car.
But yah I much prefer gas motors
That's a personal preference!!! HA! I love the smell of diesel fuel and exhaust... however I also like the tearing effect of methanol
Good thread guys, we all have our preferences and each engine has its benefits in specific applications!
... and this is why I own both!
DEMON44
Low-Tech Redneck
I wouldn't be so sure about that. theres more than a few 9 second diesel trucks around, and dozens more 10 second trucks. If it goes 1/4 mile in 10 seconds or less, doesn't matter what shape it is, its farkin fast. and at those speeds you better be able to drive.
and you said 800ft lbs at the rear wheels, well yes 800 ftlbs nowadays is laughable, because thats stock. now if you said 800 HP, thats an entirely different story.
and you said 800ft lbs at the rear wheels, well yes 800 ftlbs nowadays is laughable, because thats stock. now if you said 800 HP, thats an entirely different story.
