10 Bolt vs D44

[thekiffer]

Ok I am understanding that the D44 and the 10 bolt front have basically the same overall strength but, my question (not to steal or change the thread) what about the rear. I heard that the 10 bolts have the "C" clip in it that is a weak point. What do you all think? Let me know if I should start a new thread about this. Thanks for all the info so far. BTW I voted 10 bolt since that is what I have although I have broke the drivers side outer shaft 2 or 3 times now.

I have the same question..what about the rear? Also, do the alloy shafts help these two axles?

 

[thekiffer]

Bump for more answers...

 

[MaxPF]

I have the same question..what about the rear? Also, do the alloy shafts help these two axles?

First, the 10b is slightly stronger than a D44 thanks to it's much larger diameter pinion shaft (1.625", the same as a D60 pinion shaft, vs. 1.375" for the D44 or 1.438" for a 12b). This reduces pinion deflection, which substantially reduces the chance of a ring/pinion failure (R&P's usually fail because the pinion deflects at high load, which causes the tooth contact to move towards the top of the tooth. Since the gear teeth become progressively weaker as you move towards the top, and you are applying an increasing load to them, the eventual result is failure... unless something else breaks first). Although guys break the stock carrier (which may damage the gears when it goes) you very rarely see the R&P fail in a 10b. The axle tubes are also stronger since they are 3" in diameter vs. 2.75" for the D44. This makes the .312" wall 10b tubes essentially as strong as the .5" wall D44 axles, and stronger than a D44 with thinner-walled axle tubes. Finally, the 10b uses stronger 45 degree splines vs the 30 degree splines on a D44. Both the D44 and the 10b (or a D60, or even a 14b) can rotate the housing around the tubes. This can be prevented either by having the tubes welded to the center with the proper rod and/or instaling a truss, or installing a torque arm from the center housing to the chassis.

As far as the alloy axles go, 30 spline 4340 axles are stronger than stock 35 spline D60 (or stock 14BFF) axles. Of course, a 4340 D60 of 14bff axle is about 70% stronger than a 4340 D44/10b axle. But, most people running D60's use stock axles and seldom break em, so a 4340 axle in a 10b or D44 will be fine unless you are running really large tires (38+) and/or you drive like an idiot. The stock carriers are weak, but replacing it with a Detroit, ARB, Eaton, Auburn, etc. fixes that, That leaves the u-joint. The only way to make it stronger is the same way you made the axles stronger - use a better material. CTM, OX, and Yukon all make 4340 u-joints, with Yukon being the least expensive. This should theoretically make the weak point the locking hub, which in my mind is a Good Thing, since it is relatively cheap and easy to replace, even on the trail.

 

[76zimmer]

. Course they aren't as good as that awesome 12 bolt front end....

Or the even better 1 ton 14 bolt front.........

 

[thekiffer]

First, the 10b is slightly stronger than a D44 thanks to it's much larger diameter pinion shaft (1.625", the same as a D60 pinion shaft, vs. 1.375" for the D44 or 1.438" for a 12b). This reduces pinion deflection, which substantially reduces the chance of a ring/pinion failure (R&P's usually fail because the pinion deflects at high load, which causes the tooth contact to move towards the top of the tooth. Since the gear teeth become progressively weaker as you move towards the top, and you are applying an increasing load to them, the eventual result is failure... unless something else breaks first). Although guys break the stock carrier (which may damage the gears when it goes) you very rarely see the R&P fail in a 10b. The axle tubes are also stronger since they are 3" in diameter vs. 2.75" for the D44. This makes the .312" wall 10b tubes essentially as strong as the .5" wall D44 axles, and stronger than a D44 with thinner-walled axle tubes. Finally, the 10b uses stronger 45 degree splines vs the 30 degree splines on a D44. Both the D44 and the 10b (or a D60, or even a 14b) can rotate the housing around the tubes. This can be prevented either by having the tubes welded to the center with the proper rod and/or instaling a truss, or installing a torque arm from the center housing to the chassis.

As far as the alloy axles go, 30 spline 4340 axles are stronger than stock 35 spline D60 (or stock 14BFF) axles. Of course, a 4340 D60 of 14bff axle is about 70% stronger than a 4340 D44/10b axle. But, most people running D60's use stock axles and seldom break em, so a 4340 axle in a 10b or D44 will be fine unless you are running really large tires (38+) and/or you drive like an idiot. The stock carriers are weak, but replacing it with a Detroit, ARB, Eaton, Auburn, etc. fixes that, That leaves the u-joint. The only way to make it stronger is the same way you made the axles stronger - use a better material. CTM, OX, and Yukon all make 4340 u-joints, with Yukon being the least expensive. This should theoretically make the weak point the locking hub, which in my mind is a Good Thing, since it is relatively cheap and easy
to replace, even on the trail.

So, if you have the 28 spline 10 bolt do you have to switch to the 30 spline? OR can you put 30 spline shafts and change out the gears in a 10 bolt? If not what are the identifiers of a 30 spline 10 bolt?

 

[Beast388]

The axle tubes are also stronger since they are 3" in diameter vs. 2.75" for the D44. This makes the .312" wall 10b tubes essentially as strong as the .5" wall D44 axles, and stronger than a D44 with thinner-walled axle tubes.

My '77 3/4 ton D44 has 3" axle tubes.

The '71 D44 that came out of my Burb had the smaller 2.75" tubes. I found out the hard way when I tried to be cheap and reuse the u-bolts.

 

[Holeshot]

I think wichever one your truck some with.

 

[MaxPF]

So, if you have the 28 spline 10 bolt do you have to switch to the 30 spline? OR can you put 30 spline shafts and change out the gears in a 10 bolt? If not what are the identifiers of a 30 spline 10 bolt?

The only identifiers I know of are the year of manufacture. mid-late 89 and up are 30 spline. Or, you can pull a shaft and count the splines If you have a 28 spline axle you can convert it to 30 spline by getting 30 spline shafts and a 30 spline carrier. Since you would replace both of these items with quality aftermarket parts when upgrading it is a simple matter of buying 30 spline axles and a 30 spline locker or posi.

 

[MaxPF]

My '77 3/4 ton D44 has 3" axle tubes.

Nice. I thought all D44's were 2.75". I hope they beefed up the housing where the tubes press in, rather than just boring the 2.75" one out to 3" I also wonder if the 3/4 ton 10b's have .5" wall axle tubes...? I confess to never having had one apart...

 

[thekiffer]

Then using what you have is my vote. Swapping shafts and carriers isn't a big deal for 30 spline and really putting in alloys is expensive but significantly cheaper than buying a d60 for either Dana or Corporate. If you are running 37's or smaller why not. The thing a lot of people forget is that with a one ton setup you have to have at least a 38" tire or do some serious shaving to make it worth it. I do see the advantage of aftermarket for the 44 though. The Aussie locker is indistructable and cheap. Same basic design as the Lockrite but they use way better quality steel. Unfortunately no Corporate applications as of yet. That is just one example.

 

[MaxPF]

Then using what you have is my vote. Swapping shafts and carriers isn't a big deal for 30 spline and really putting in alloys is expensive but significantly cheaper than buying a d60 for either Dana or Corporate. If you are running 37's or smaller why not. The thing a lot of people forget is that with a one ton setup you have to have at least a 38" tire or do some serious shaving to make it worth it. I do see the advantage of aftermarket for the 44 though. The Aussie locker is indistructable and cheap. Same basic design as the Lockrite but they use way better quality steel. Unfortunately no Corporate applications as of yet. That is just one example.

Two points here. First, 10b and D44 stock carriers aren't the strongest things ever made. If you look at one you will understand why - there is simply not much metal in 'em. If you upgrade your other parts, stick a lunchbox locker in it with a set of 35's, and drive with a heavy foot you may end up grenading it. I'm not trying to dissuade you from using one, just letting you know it won't take a ton of abuse. Second, I am not sure if you can install a 30-spline locker (or open spider side gears for that matter) in a 28 spline carrier. This would be something to check before you spend your money.

Personally, I would $#!tcan the entire carrier and put an aftermarket unit in there. Granted, a Detroit ain't cheap, and a selectable is even less so, but they won't break. I just looked on Ebay and a guy is selling a 30 spline Detroit "C-Locker" (that's what they call the detroit's for c-clip axles like the 10b) with a starting bid of $100 and a buy-it-now price of $375. For not much more than a lunchbox locker you get a "real" locker

 

[thatK30guy]

Nice. I thought all D44's were 2.75". I hope they beefed up the housing where the tubes press in, rather than just boring the 2.75" one out to 3" I also wonder if the 3/4 ton 10b's have .5" wall axle tubes...? I confess to never having had one apart...

Nope. Not all D44's had .5" wall tubes. Only the 3/4 tons did. And yes, the D44's ran both 2.75" and 3" tubes also. The smaller tubes were built for the "first design" axles which were the pre-'77 axles. 3" tubes were fitted to the '77 and newer axles, including the 10 bolts. All 1/2 ton axles, both D44 and 10 bolts, had thinner wall tubes where all the 3/4 ton D44's had .5" thickness tubes. 10 bolt tubes in 3/4 tons were also thinner wall tubing just like their 1/2 ton counterparts.

 

[6.2Blazer]

A couple things to point out:

- From the best of my knowledge, a front 30-spline 10-bolt was only offered from '89-'91

- While a 30-spline alloy inner axle may be prenty strong, what do you do with the stub shaft? You are pretty much stuck with the same size stub, granted you can get alloys ones but the physical size still limits the overall strength.

- Along with the above, I also wonder about the size of the u-joint yokes on these axleshafts. Granted you can get better material but you are still limited in how "big" you make the yokes.

- If you get fancy alloy axleshafts, you pretty much have to get fancy u-joints also. I used to have a 30-spline 10-bolt front axle.......never broke the shafts but broke the axle u-joints. Again,you are limited as you can not put a bigger u-joint in.

- 10-bolts and Dana 44's have balljoints instead of kingpins, and typically do not hold as well to bigger tires. Plus they have small wheel bearings, smaller brakes, etc...

- At least on a OEM open carrier, you can NOT switch from 28-spline to 30-spline shafts. The side gears will physically fit, but the openings in the side of the carrier itself are too small to allow the larger 30-spline shaft to fit. Not sure about the aftermarket carriers though.

- A 10-bolt with alloy shafts and blingy u-joints.......significantly cheaper than a Dana 60?? Not real sure about this, I guess it depends. If you are not in a hurry and do some searching you can find a complete good condition Dana 60 for $500, slap a $300 Lock-right in it and it will hold up pretty good. On the other hand buy a $100 10-bolt, $500 Detroit locker, and $600-$800 for alloy shafts and fancy u-joints. Okay, so you have two axles that hold up about the same regarding axlestrength but you just spent more on the 10-bolt, plus you have it's other weaknesses to deal with.

 

[thekiffer]

- A 10-bolt with alloy shafts and blingy u-joints.......significantly cheaper than a Dana 60?? Not real sure about this, I guess it depends. If you are not in a hurry and do some searching you can find a complete good condition Dana 60 for $500, slap a $300 Lock-right in it and it will hold up pretty good. On the other hand buy a $100 10-bolt, $500 Detroit locker, and $600-$800 for alloy shafts and fancy u-joints. Okay, so you have two axles that hold up about the same regarding axlestrength but you just spent more on the 10-bolt, plus you have it's other weaknesses to deal with.

I might be new to this forum but I am not new to being a parts hound. I have a Jeep on one tons and 40's and I call bull. Maybe in OHIO you can get a 60 for nothing but not here in Colorado....1200 for a complete axles 800 with out brakes maybe...and if I have to ship it from ohio it will cost me the difference to ship it.

 

[jamber2541]

I am running a 75 3/4 ton Dana 44 on my 90 K5, I swapped out the hub and rotor assy to the newer model that use the bigger bearings and it has help up pretty good to my 35s and Auburn possi and not to mention my heavy foot

 

[MaxPF]

A couple things to point out:

- From the best of my knowledge, a front 30-spline 10-bolt was only offered from '89-'91

That is correct. However, the 28 spline housings are the same as the 30 spline, which means that you can use a 30 spline carrier and axles in the older housings.

- While a 30-spline alloy inner axle may be prenty strong, what do you do with the stub shaft? You are pretty much stuck with the same size stub, granted you can get alloys ones but the physical size still limits the overall strength.

The stock D60 stub is 30 spline, which is weaker than the alloy 19 spline stubs. That is why folks upgrade to 35 spline stubs on the D60. D44/10b apps are a bit screwed, however. A 30 spline (1.312") shaft will physically fit through the D44/10b spindle. In fact, International used 30 spline stub shafts on the 73-80 Scout with the D44. Unfortunately, they are about 1-1/4" shorter than the GM stub This isn't a big problem - you could easily have Superior or another axle manufacturer make a 9.94" long 30 spline stub. This would be great, except nobody makes a 30 spline hub lock.

- Along with the above, I also wonder about the size of the u-joint yokes on these axleshafts. Granted you can get better material but you are still limited in how "big" you make the yokes.

Yup, but the alloy shaft yokes are stronger than the stock carbon steel D60 yokes.

- If you get fancy alloy axleshafts, you pretty much have to get fancy u-joints also. I used to have a 30-spline 10-bolt front axle.......never broke the shafts but broke the axle u-joints. Again,you are limited as you can not put a bigger u-joint in.

Again, 4340 760-size u-joints are much stronger than the standard Spicer 806's used in the D60.

- 10-bolts and Dana 44's have balljoints instead of kingpins, and typically do not hold as well to bigger tires. Plus they have small wheel bearings, smaller brakes, etc...

Nobody is suggesting using a 10b or D44 with 38+ inch tires, even with alloy axles. It would be doable, provided you were very careful, but here is the point where a D60 (with alloy axles ) is better. Of course, if someone runs a 10b with alloy axles and u-joints, breaks it, and thinks swapping in a D60 with stock parts is going to solve their breakage issues, then they're delusional.

- At least on a OEM open carrier, you can NOT switch from 28-spline to 30-spline shafts. The side gears will physically fit, but the openings in the side of the carrier itself are too small to allow the larger 30-spline shaft to fit. Not sure about the aftermarket carriers though.

That seems to be what I recall as well...

- A 10-bolt with alloy shafts and blingy u-joints.......significantly cheaper than a Dana 60?? Not real sure about this, I guess it depends. If you are not in a hurry and do some searching you can find a complete good condition Dana 60 for $500, slap a $300 Lock-right in it and it will hold up pretty good. On the other hand buy a $100 10-bolt, $500 Detroit locker, and $600-$800 for alloy shafts and fancy u-joints. Okay, so you have two axles that hold up about the same regarding axlestrength but you just spent more on the 10-bolt, plus you have it's other weaknesses to deal with.

First, find me a $500 D60. Good deals can be had, but this is by far the exception rather than the rule. Figure a grand for a good rebuildable D60, a couple hundred bucks for gears (unless it happens to have the right ones already), more cash for wheel bearings and such (since it probably needs 'em). Then more money for a driveshaft. Another $250 for a lock-right. Then another $600 for a Detroit after you realize that is what you should have bought in the first place rather than being a cheap bastard. Most folks don't have to buy a 10b or D44 - it's already sitting under their truck. So now, you have to realistically figure out what you are going to do with your ride. Most people don't go bigger than 35's or 37's on their rig for a variety of reasons, including cost, daily driveability, etc. For these folks, upgrading the 10b or D44 will be more cost effective, as well as having more ground clearance (important, since they aren't using huge tires), a better ride (less unsprung weight) and better mileage (less weight, less internal friction). For guys who are planning on going bigger than 37's (which by definition means you don't really care about daily driveability or mileage - this will be a mostly trail rig), then it is probably wise to get a D60. If you like to flog it, plan on spending money for D60 alloy shafts, blingy u-joints, etc.

 

[thatK30guy]

First, find me a $500 D60.

I picked & pulled a matching D60/14FF out of a '79 K3500 and paid the owner $250 for the pair once.

I bought an '85 D60 front with 3.73 gears for $500 once, too.

And then I bought an '85 K30 cab-&-chassis sans motor and bed, dual rear wheel version, for $500.

The deals are out there. Just have to know where to look.

 

[GM4wheeling]

I'm going to throw off here... since we've got all these axle pro's posting . I got a truetrac for my 10bolt 28 spline... The stock carrier bearings do not even come close to fitting on the truetrac carrier. I've got the whole thing put together using the test bearing that easily slide on and off just so you can get the pattern down and adjust shims quicker... but i need a part number for the right bearings that I need, , I'm stuck, can't find it anywhere. HELP!!

 

[MaxPF]

I picked & pulled a matching D60/14FF out of a '79 K3500 and paid the owner $250 for the pair once.

I bought an '85 D60 front with 3.73 gears for $500 once, too.

And then I bought an '85 K30 cab-&-chassis sans motor and bed, dual rear wheel version, for $500.

The deals are out there. Just have to know where to look.

As I said, the exception rather than the rule, especially here in AZ and many other places where demand is higher.

 

[MaxPF]

I'm going to throw off here... since we've got all these axle pro's posting . I got a truetrac for my 10bolt 28 spline... The stock carrier bearings do not even come close to fitting on the truetrac carrier. I've got the whole thing put together using the test bearing that easily slide on and off just so you can get the pattern down and adjust shims quicker... but i need a part number for the right bearings that I need, , I'm stuck, can't find it anywhere. HELP!!

The bearing you need is an LM102949, and the outer race is a LM102911. Those are Timken part #'s, and you need 2 of each.