52 vs 4-Link front vs 4" TC for Daily Driver

[blazinzuk]

This is the reason I don't understand the 52" hype. By the time you go through all the work you can install a custom spring in the stock hangers, and put a nice shock on and have enough comfortable travel in the system that you develop the need for more axle control cause you have bump steer even with well setup crossover.
I don't think it would be much difference in cost, and the time it takes would be way less.

I looked at custom springs. Way more cost effective for me to do the 56" swap, I like the 56s way better than the 52" swap though because you don't have to move your rear shackle hanger. But I can weld and had the 56s.

I think the x over is a necessity for any off road truck that is used heavily. It steers so much better on the road less bumpsteer (if any) just works better all around. Plus x over can make its way through many different suspension designs

If you want the best leaf springs its a simple fact of life that custom springs will be the best option, along with a good set of shocks.

Custom springs can certainly ride nice, and if you have to buy brackets, springs, etc to do the 52" swap than I think custom springs would be the better way to go too. If you use the stock shock mount some careful measuring will go a long way to maximize travel.

Coils are the best option here. It sounds like you know some guys who are in the know with suspensions. They are certainly the most expensive option.

If you go with links my I suggest using some sort of rebuildable flex joint if you run on the street alot. Heims wear out. Some not as fast, some alot faster. On the street I would run a rebuildable flex joint

 

[miniwally]

I looked at custom springs. Way more cost effective for me to do the 56" swap, I like the 56s way better than the 52" swap though because you don't have to move your rear shackle hanger. But I can weld and had the 56s.

I think the x over is a necessity for any off road truck that is used heavily. It steers so much better on the road less bumpsteer (if any) just works better all around. Plus x over can make its way through many different suspension designs

If you want the best leaf springs its a simple fact of life that custom springs will be the best option, along with a good set of shocks.

Custom springs can certainly ride nice, and if you have to buy brackets, springs, etc to do the 52" swap than I think custom springs would be the better way to go too. If you use the stock shock mount some careful measuring will go a long way to maximize travel.

Coils are the best option here. It sounds like you know some guys who are in the know with suspensions. They are certainly the most expensive option.

If you go with links my I suggest using some sort of rebuildable flex joint if you run on the street alot. Heims wear out. Some not as fast, some alot faster. On the street I would run a rebuildable flex joint

I think the 52" craze and to some extent the 56" craze started with guys in your situation. Have the skills, have the parts and your time is "free". Most of the time if these are the things you are able to do then it's cheaper to go to the longer springs.

But if your buying all of the stuff I don't see it being cheaper. Maybe it's financially less but it takes time to install all that stuff and to me that's honestly where it tends to get expensive.

Links and coils/coilovers are the end all suspension period. A well designed link setup will drive better than stock, travel better than any leaf spring and generally be more robust. All of that goodness comes with hefty price tags in both time and money.

 

[muddermilitia]

4" Tuff Country EZ ride springs in front, 4" ORD shackle flip in back. Sway bar was still connected. Do you need more flex than that? 4" lift springs would be the most cost effective for your needs, I think. If you start tearing it down for a linked suspension, you could easily turn it into a much bigger project than you ever wanted.

 

[garlicbreath]

I did 52's on my 71. It was alot of work overall and I still have some issues.
The ride on road is great, and handling is good. I can't wheel local so I have done several 1500 mile RT excursions with it and it's fine.
Sure, it's different than the 4 inch TC springs I had before, but you just adjust your driving style.

The issues I have are simple fixes, the front end now has a RIDICULOUS amount of droop. Compression is the same, limited by oil pan and bump stops.
SO, it yanks my driveshaft apart on extreme hills. They also are so soft they allow the pinion to rotate away and down under power, compounding the vertical climb problem. I almost think I need a front traction bar, like the solid axle yotas had.

If I had the money back then, I would have order some Alcans.
But I didn't and my time was free. I also had to do crossover steering, but saw that as an excuse to do hydro assist.

I also don't run a sway bar at all.

I thought long and hard about doing a link setup up front, but decided against it. I do haul with it sometimes. Had a 4000lb Chris Craft I used to tow 100 miles through the finger lakes every summer. Also had to act as impromptu tow rig a few times when my buddies ford junk broke down, so I would hitch up their heep and get us back to home base then go back for the broken ford later.

 

[eclipse85k10]

I should have specified, I'm looking for more ride off-road going over bumps and humps than flex for crawling and keeping good road manors. Just another case of wanting the ultimate burb. How hard would it be to use dodge coils in a custom setup? I have access to dodge parts where I work. I have no problem doing the work for custom shock mounts spring hangers and such. I know guys like 52s for flex, I just never knew how they handled on road and for travel. I'm thinking I would go with some mild reservoir shocks, maybe some bilstiens.

What I work around and why I'm thinking more than my old school leaf springs...

 

[blazinzuk]

Usually good articulation will go hand in hand with getting over bumps better. The only issue with using dodge stuff is one the coils are big in diameter so it makes packaging a touch harder. The second issue is really the same as when you are using 52s up front vs custom built springs, you are dealing with a situation where its non optimum. The reason alot of guys run coil overs I think is two fold, one they are easier to mount than coils, 2 you get a custom setup. Using any factory part not designed for your truck means you are making a compromise in spring rate and fitment. Sometimes those compromises work out very well, sometimes not so much.

I have used everything from Cherokee coils to full size bronco coils to early bronco coils, sidekick coils, toyota coils and a few in between in builds I have done in the past. We have had to switch a couple out because they didn't really work that well. Couple of times we ended up with not enough lift, once they were too soft. But 4 or 5 times we have hit it out of the park.

Thats the main problem with using dodge stuff. You usually spend more time making stuff fit and modifying it to fit your use than you would ever think and realize in the end it would have just been better to start from scratch and use all the parts you wanted.

Full size bronco coils I have had very good success with in doing SAS on newer trucks.

I will probably use them in a future build for my Jimmy too. They are pretty long and flexible I think they are a 5" body too so not too wide.

When you really start looking at stuff ORDs coilover kit becomes very attractive. The time you spend completely re engineering your suspension and testing it, if you mess up once it could easily cost well over what their kit costs.

I don't really know your abilitys or skills, I will probably never buy a bolt on coilover kit, I have built several link suspensions over the years and learned alot about what works and what doesn't and more importantly what I like and or don't like.

But links and coil overs are the ultimate for any truck out there IMHO total adjust ability of the ride height and spring rates. Excellent travel and rapid suspension response. And hey there is the cool factor too

 

[miniwally]

If your looking towards a link and coil suspension like blazinzuk says you have a hard time finding coils for other vehicles. You usually end up with a compromise some place.

Getting the spring rates right and then packaging a 5" dia. coil and a seperate shock makes coilovers begin to look good. One easy to package shock and coil. Even a 2.5" shock has a 3.5" to 4.0" outside spring dia. Now in the space that you barely had room for the 5" spring you have both the spring and shock.

If I was you I would spend a LOT of time both on here and Pirate studying suspensions and what makes them work. You will spend twice as much time installing a front than you think it should take. It will have areas that you will have less than an 1/8" of clearance and will be happy that you got it that big. There are plenty of others that will disagree with me and say doing links is not that hard, not that expensive etc but I have yet to see anyone get the project done and say it was cheaper and easier than they thought.

 

[blazinzuk]

You will spend twice as much time installing a front than you think it should take. It will have areas that you will have less than an 1/8" of clearance and will be happy that you got it that big. There are plenty of others that will disagree with me and say doing links is not that hard, not that expensive etc but I have yet to see anyone get the project done and say it was cheaper and easier than they thought.

This made me laugh, I cannot count the number of times someone has done their own links and said to me, I did it for this much, told you I could do it on the cheap. Then by the next time I see them they have changed everything because nothing worked right the first time, spent way more money on everything they didn't spend money on the first time.

Links are certainly not out of the realm of the DIY crowd but you need to understand it takes tons of time, and more money than you expect.

I have never meant one single person who has gone to coilovers that will ever go back to coils or leaves.

 

[Blue85]

Soft leaf springs can flex, sure. If articulation is all you're after, then it's a simple solution. However I don't think the ride quality can compare to coils due to the sliding nature of the springs. Plus links can keep things like pinion angle and tire position in check through a must greater range. With leafs there just aren't many options.

 

[miniwally]

Soft leaf springs can flex, sure. If articulation is all you're after, then it's a simple solution. However I don't think the ride quality can compare to coils due to the sliding nature of the springs. Plus links can keep things like pinion angle and tire position in check through a must greater range. With leafs there just aren't many options.

Keep in mind that a custom spring usually takes into account leaf to leaf friction, has good pads to reduce friction, and in general is superior to off the shelf springs, You pay for it but their nice.

I'll say your wrong about ride quality due to spring rate. Spring rate is spring rate period. If a coil spring has 200lb/in rate and a leaf spring has a 200lb/in rate they are the same and thus will ride the same.

Axle control is far superior with links. Leafs can't even come close even with bandaids like traction bars, trackbars etc. just ain't happenin with leafs.

 

[DK5]

My 89 sub is a slow project, haven't had time to touch it, but do have lots of time to think of plans. Currently it is bone stock. I want a mild lift on it with some trail capable suspension but good highway handling.

I'm following this thread too because I will be upgrading my suspension.

I would like a system that rides better than stock. 90% of my driving is on the road, which is often because mine is my DD.

Right now, I'm thinking either 2-4" Alcan or Tuff Country EZ ride lift with Bilsteins OR some sort of coil-over conversion kit (ie., offroad design or Off Road LTD )

This is based on what I have read so far about the topic.

EDIT:
I know there has been talk of fabrication, but for me that won't work. I need simplicity and reliability. Also because I drive the K5 quite often I would want the project to be complete fairly quickly. This is my common sense thinking and .02 cents.

 

[Blue85]

Spring rate is spring rate period. If a coil spring has 200lb/in rate and a leaf spring has a 200lb/in rate they are the same and thus will ride the same.

This is only true if there is no inter-leaf friction. For coils the dynamic rate is the same as the static. For leafs the two rates can be different due to friction. Static = flex. Dynamic = ride. So you must be trying to say that with modern springs and teflon pads inter-leaf friction is a non-issue.

What about durability? Everyone is asking for ride quality from their leaf spring "lift kits". The fact that springs rates don't get lower tells me that the manufacturers don't trust the light springs with more free arch. Axlewrap would be horrible with 50lb/in. leafs in the rear and the body roll could cause liability concerns.

 

[miniwally]

This is only true if there is no inter-leaf friction. For coils the dynamic rate is the same as the static. For leafs the two rates can be different due to friction. Static = flex. Dynamic = ride. So you must be trying to say that with modern springs and teflon pads inter-leaf friction is a non-issue.

What about durability? Everyone is asking for ride quality from their leaf spring "lift kits". The fact that springs rates don't get lower tells me that the manufacturers don't trust the light springs with more free arch. Axlewrap would be horrible with 50lb/in. leafs in the rear and the body roll could cause liability concerns.

Inner leaf friction does exist. It can be minimized with good pads and proper maintenance. Also I do believe that most competent spring designers take some of that into account with the spring design. So for the lay person conversation a leaf spring can equal a coil spring as far as spring rate. Keep in mind there is also friction in a coilover from the spring sliders, hiem joints etc. With a coil there isn't as much friction but some is still there. I also doubt that any of us can feel an increase in spring rate from friction as a leaf spring travels. Maybe a top racer type could but I know I most likely couldn't.

Everyone gets into a coil sprung vehicle and thinks that it rides nicer cause typically spring rates and shock tuning are a part of the tuning of the suspension. Plus the axle control that is a by product of a coil suspension allows more precise driver control to put the vehicle in the right spot.

On the other hand the average joe buys a set of lift leaf springs, an out of the box shock and bolts them on. They might get a better ride out of them than what they had but it's not apples to apples with a coil type suspension.

I think that a coil spring is more durable in the long run than a leaf spring. But coils can and do go away if you coil bind them.

I think most manufacturers of off the shelf springs do error on the high side of spring rate, keep the leaf thickness up and thus reduce the inner spring friction, plus a stiffer spring fights axle wrap. It's liability and trying to please the masses.

Custom leafs are usually many thin leaves, and designed for a specific spring rate and travel amount. Most of the time some sort of axle wrap control is mandatory with custom leaves at least in the rear.

I think we're sort of getting way off course with this. My point earlier was simply that in the ~12" to 14" travel range (which is close to what a 52" spring with no real work will provide) a custom stock length spring will be the same for travel and can be made for the same ride. Steering becomes an issue even with crossover once you get much past 12" of vertical travel. You get bump steer that is very noticeable at around 12" of travel. There are ways around that but they're just bandaids where the real solution to that issue is a correctly setup link system with a track bar.

I will not argue that a coil suspension is superior to leaves in all aspects. I do believe that with some time and money a leaf spring suspension can ride as nice but is won't steer as well or probably be as durable.

 

[garlicbreath]

What about links transferring road vibrations and shock to the frame and occupants?

How do you alleviate that problem?
Without buying mega buck rod ends I guess.

 

[Blue85]

Everybody is saying that the 52" swap requires moving the rear spring mount forward in the frame (about 4"). But they are already moving the front mount forward 4", so the rear spring eye is in the same spot as stock. So to get the optimum ride and flex from the a 48" pack, shouldn't the spring hanger be moved forward?

If that's the case and custom springs really are custom, then why not order them in 52" length with the hole offset to give 24 and 28 inches?

 

[muddysub]

What about links transferring road vibrations and shock to the frame and occupants?

How do you alleviate that problem?
Without buying mega buck rod ends I guess.

poly bushings on the frame end. ive seen it done on a lot of XJs.

 

[blazinzuk]

What about links transferring road vibrations and shock to the frame and occupants?

How do you alleviate that problem?
Without buying mega buck rod ends I guess.

don't buy rod ends, buy flex joints.

Links built for the street compromise off road durability and flex, links built for off road compromise NVH isolation and are not put em in and forget.

Every thing we do with our rigs is a compromise, its just which side of the compromise you want to be on

 

[NorCal_Chris]

don't buy rod ends, buy flex joints.

Links built for the street compromise off road durability and flex, links built for off road compromise NVH isolation and are not put em in and forget.

Every thing we do with our rigs is a compromise, its just which side of the compromise you want to be on

You need to get on that bushing link setup you were talking about so i can see how it performs!