This reminds me of a thread somewhere about a guy painting his calipers ... and rotors ... and pads
-- A
CK5
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'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build
- Thread starter Greg72
- Start date
This is the build description. I will improve this later. (GB)
This reminds me of a thread somewhere about a guy painting his calipers ... and rotors ... and pads
-- A
This reminds me of a thread somewhere about a guy painting his calipers ... and rotors ... and pads
-- A
I've been in discussions with my local powdercoater about Ceramic coating the rotors and calipers (but not the pads!)
Throw the rotors back into a brake lathe afterwards to clean up the pad contact surfaces.... and an otherwise rusty, ugly component should stay looking good forever.
-G
Never noticed that quote in your sig before today.
That's a good one!
That's a good one!
I like Flowmasters because they sound the best, but they definitely are not the best when it comes to flow, and are surely not the quietest. Spintechs aren't much better and are kind of loud and don't sound as good to me. The true perforated flow through mufflers are decent at reducing the sound level while allowing high flow, but they just don't sound quite as good to me. However, with a large short tailpipe, and no crossover, they can sound OK. I just don't like the sound of a crossover, or 180 headers for that matter. Sounds too much like a 4 cylinder than a V8 should ever sound to me.
A muffler like a Borla is probably the best compromise of flow and sound reduction, however, I still don't know if I like the sound of a muffler with packing material. A good compromise is the Hooker Aerochamber, it has basically a flow through design, with both chambers and perforations, and no packing to wear out. Its very quiet at idle and low load, but gets loud under throttle. You have many options, and if your v-bands fit the longest option then trying different sounds on the same exact engine and exhaust might be pretty neat actually.
Don't waste your money with the cutouts Greg, a proper dual 3" exhaust system with the right mufflers will lose almost nothing, maybe 2 - 5 hp, you won't be able to feel it thats for sure. A 2.5", probably 20 - 30 hp or more would be gone depending on the muffler, don't go there with the caliber of engine you have. But cutouts will just be another thing to leak and cause extra noise and require extra maintenance without a real benefit, unless noise is a benefit. Plus, exhaust that travels half through a muffler and half without does not sound very well anyway to me. Also, if you optimise it for the cutout, it will be less optimized through the mufflers and probably lose more hp than if you didn't have the cutouts. If you optimize it through the mufflers, it will be even less likely to make more hp through the open cutout. So my point is, you are more likely to make the max power through the dual 3" system if it doesn't have the extra turns and turbulence required of installing a cutout. Because one of the directions it would have to go would be a dead end when its closed, and that creates turbulence in the otherwise smooth flowing mandrel bent (or tig welded piece of mandrel bent) system.
So my recommendation, go dual 3" with mandrel bent pieces, use the highest flowing muffler your ears will allow you too, and don't use a cutout.
Also, I like Vizards work and I highly respect him, I even have a few of his books and I like reading his work just to get more perspectives on things. But I also know that some of his recommendations are incorrect in the real world. We don't drive dynos or magazines, we drive vehicles. Many professionals have tried to repeat what he does without the same results.
A muffler like a Borla is probably the best compromise of flow and sound reduction, however, I still don't know if I like the sound of a muffler with packing material. A good compromise is the Hooker Aerochamber, it has basically a flow through design, with both chambers and perforations, and no packing to wear out. Its very quiet at idle and low load, but gets loud under throttle. You have many options, and if your v-bands fit the longest option then trying different sounds on the same exact engine and exhaust might be pretty neat actually.
Don't waste your money with the cutouts Greg, a proper dual 3" exhaust system with the right mufflers will lose almost nothing, maybe 2 - 5 hp, you won't be able to feel it thats for sure. A 2.5", probably 20 - 30 hp or more would be gone depending on the muffler, don't go there with the caliber of engine you have. But cutouts will just be another thing to leak and cause extra noise and require extra maintenance without a real benefit, unless noise is a benefit. Plus, exhaust that travels half through a muffler and half without does not sound very well anyway to me. Also, if you optimise it for the cutout, it will be less optimized through the mufflers and probably lose more hp than if you didn't have the cutouts. If you optimize it through the mufflers, it will be even less likely to make more hp through the open cutout. So my point is, you are more likely to make the max power through the dual 3" system if it doesn't have the extra turns and turbulence required of installing a cutout. Because one of the directions it would have to go would be a dead end when its closed, and that creates turbulence in the otherwise smooth flowing mandrel bent (or tig welded piece of mandrel bent) system.
So my recommendation, go dual 3" with mandrel bent pieces, use the highest flowing muffler your ears will allow you too, and don't use a cutout.
Also, I like Vizards work and I highly respect him, I even have a few of his books and I like reading his work just to get more perspectives on things. But I also know that some of his recommendations are incorrect in the real world. We don't drive dynos or magazines, we drive vehicles. Many professionals have tried to repeat what he does without the same results.
Heath,
What about the resonators? Yeah or Nay? From a drone perspective, they seem effective but add cost and most people can't find room for them anyway. If I can get rid of some of the "bark" of the exhaust with a resonator it might make a Hooker Aerochamber more modest-sounding that it would be otherwise??
The cutouts would not be for any kind of performance improvement.... really more of a fun gimmick to play around with. Like when someone is driving next to me on their cellphone and not paying very careful attention to their driving.
Or as part of my anti-theft system where the system automatically opens the cutouts when the alarm is set. That way, it's pretty likely somebody would notice if the truck were started by thieves.... I have a special transfercase lock that goes with that one.... keeps the truck in 142:1 low range no matter what they try......TOP SPEED in 4th Gear = 33MPH @ 6000RPM.Pure evil....
-G
That's the trouble with builds that take this long, it gives you entirely too much time to think things through
That's the trouble with builds that take this long, it gives you entirely too much time to think things through
Well....if THAT'S true, you must have my 4L80E spec'ed out just about perfectly by now!!!!
-G
Heath,
What about the resonators? Yeah or Nay? From a drone perspective, they seem effective but add cost and most people can't find room for them anyway. If I can get rid of some of the "bark" of the exhaust with a resonator it might make a Hooker Aerochamber more modest-sounding that it would be otherwise??
The cutouts would not be for any kind of performance improvement.... really more of a fun gimmick to play around with. Like when someone is driving next to me on their cellphone and not paying very careful attention to their driving.
Pure evil....
-G
As long as the resonators are full flow diameter through them I don't see any problem with them if you are willing to spend the time and money to make them fit. I understand you are trying to "tame the beast", which it isn't exactly easy to make a big block quiet, but its a lot easier than it used to be back when they were created. You just don't want to choke it off, full dual 3" flow or larger is your goal after the collector. Also, don't place the resonotor too close to the collector, maybe 18" back or something would be better than immediately after the collector. The closer you are to the header, the hotter the exhaust gases are, and the more important it is to have full flow. Once you get back to the tailpipe and the gas has cooled down significantly, the volume is less so flow is not quite as critical, but still critical. However, a small tailpipe on a big block is going to sound like crap, barking and popping with higher pitch, and not crisp and deep, which is how I like it, not sure about your preference. The larger and shorter the tailpipe, the deeper and smoother the sound will be all else being equal.
Another thing you could utilize that some racing headers have is merge collectors, although they are not as effective on a full exhaust vehicle. If you think about the engine working, no two cylinders are firing at exactly the same time, so they should all arrive at the collector in sequence, which means the they will slow down when they hit the open spot. A merge collector uses a small coned opening to speed it up and give it a boost right before it enters the larger exchaust or atmosphere. This helps scavange the other cylinders by creating higher velocity where they all come together, but doesn't leave it small for too long as to restrict the flow and create power robbing backpressure like too small of an exhaust would.
As for the cutouts, your plan sounds entertaining and would probabyl be funny to watch should someone ever witness your truck being stolen, but wouldn't you rather you just make it so the truck won't start because of a hidden switch or deactive the spark or something, rather then allow them to start it and drive away with a loud exhaust going 30 mph? And if you want to mess with the other lane just drop it in neutral and rev it up, it will get louder.
More seriously, what I am trying to say is, if you put 3" cutouts in a dual 3" exhaust, you very well might make less power than if you didn't have them at all. As it creates turbulance in the system that shouldn't be there when sound and pressure waves try to travel down a dead end, and then turn around and crash into the pulses that are trying to pass by the "intersection" that should just be a smooth radius bend or straight section instead. The only time cutouts make sense to me is if you can't fit a full exhaust in the diameter that you need all the way back. In that case, cutouts can add power by giving you that extra flow when you need it. But if you can get a full smooth dual 3" system, the cutouts aren't going to help most likely, and could possibly hurt performance. Now, if all you could fit was 2.5", then I would say put in the cutouts, and make it so when they are open the exhaust has a straight path through the collector and out with nothing in between. And when you close the cutout it has to make a turn to go down the puny 2.5" exhaust.
How about making the exhaust cutouts with a little more length and tune them for drone reduction like Muddysub's Daisy?
I'm still loving this build, can't wait to see it finished. I'll go back into lurking mode now. Keep up the good work!
I'm still loving this build, can't wait to see it finished. I'll go back into lurking mode now. Keep up the good work!
Cut outs are nothing but trouble. Don't do cut outs.
I have done alot of looking at exhausts. I don't like loud exhausts it's harder for me to heckle people when their rigs are loud.
I applaud you for wanting a quite exhaust.
I have done alot of looking at exhausts. I don't like loud exhausts it's harder for me to heckle people when their rigs are loud.
I applaud you for wanting a quite exhaust.
Well..... I definitely want it to be quiet enough to hear your applause!
I guess for most of this discussion there really isn't a "point of no return" anyway... cutouts / no cutouts, resonators / no resonators is all somewhat flexible given that I can graft / remove those items as I see fit. As long as I'm willing to buy V-band clamps for each section of the exhaust, I can swap parts in and out to my hearts delight.
For now, I guess I'll just figure out a good resonator and get it as far away from the collector as possible (though it's still in the torsion box area no matter what).... then suck it up and get some 3" stainless tube ordered.
-G
Well..... I definitely want it to be quiet enough to hear your applause!
I guess for most of this discussion there really isn't a "point of no return" anyway.
Yes applause yes that's what I meant.
Greg Ducato is very right though. Super easy to over think something like this.
Get it done so I can heckl............i mean applaud you
bp71k5
3/4 ton status
You could build it out of standard tube to test the sound and layout first? Just trying to save you some cash...
I'm glad I'm not the only one that likes the quieter exhaust. I thought maybe I was getting old and turning into "Get of my lawn!" guy.
I remember reading each bend also adds significant backers sure bud reduces sound output as well..
In my experience the more powerful the engine the more sound it's going to produce, just light heat the sounds a byproduct of the energy you are producing. Which in your case is a very healthy big block, if you are ok with loss of power for loss of sound you can come up with some creative routing to reduce output some. Mufflers do this but I am also a fan of the open resonator because of the quality of the sound isn't affected as much. One other thing which you all probally already know, is the direction of the pipes, even a few degrees will reduce total perceived sound.. Pipes down and out the rear are a lot quieter than dumping the exhaust under the truck. So if you are after a quiet driving vehicle there are many ways to accomplish this without having it be quiet outside
In my experience the more powerful the engine the more sound it's going to produce, just light heat the sounds a byproduct of the energy you are producing. Which in your case is a very healthy big block, if you are ok with loss of power for loss of sound you can come up with some creative routing to reduce output some. Mufflers do this but I am also a fan of the open resonator because of the quality of the sound isn't affected as much. One other thing which you all probally already know, is the direction of the pipes, even a few degrees will reduce total perceived sound.. Pipes down and out the rear are a lot quieter than dumping the exhaust under the truck. So if you are after a quiet driving vehicle there are many ways to accomplish this without having it be quiet outside
I'm glad I'm not the only one that likes the quieter exhaust. I thought maybe I was getting old and turning into "Get of my lawn!" guy.
Hec I'm that way and I'm only 25
I should clarify a couple of my statements. Spintech does make some very high flowing mufflers, but those are not going to be quiet. The tradional spintech that is what they are based on I don't think flows all that well and is not really that quiet, just like a flowmaster. But Flowmasters just sound so much better than everything else IMO.
Also, the Hooker aerochamber, which I like that is relatively high flow and low sound with no packing to blow out. But what I don't like is they started making them in China now, when they used to be made in the US. Also, they only make them with a stainless core and aluminized case, they stopped making the complete stainless version. This may not be acceptable to you, not sure.
The Borla (or many of the same style that uses perforations and packing, like magnaflow, some of spintech's racing versions, dynomax, hooker maximum flow, etc) that have full flow through them with a perforated tube and packing (some have stainles packing as opposed to fiberglass packing that blows out over time), is probably going to give you a lot of noise reduction without much flow reduction. I just for the life of me don''t like the sound of a packing material exhaust. But many people love it, so you have decide what you like Greg. If you do go packing I think you would be happy with the stainless packing, should last longer.
When it comes to shear performance and sound reduction sometimes you just can't beat a Borla or something similar if you are looking for the quietest muffler that still flows almost as good as a straight section of pipe.
Flowmaster does make a flow through race muffler that is more like a resonator. Basically has a few larger OD steps inside with nothing impeding flow. They make them in stainless. I wonder what those would sound like as a resonator a couple feet or so behind the collector, followed by some Borlas back near the axle with some short fat 3" tailpipes. That might sound pretty good while allowing full 3" flow and reducing the sound to an acceptable level, but this is purely speculation on my part, I haven't tried it yet, but I might later this summer.
If you do some searches you can find some testing where they measured flow, hp, and dB levels of varying kinds of mufflers. This might be info you would be interested in Greg. Just keep in mind you will likely have more hp than those tests, so if you use the same muffler you would see a bigger loss. However, I think you will be fine if you stick with dual 3" and don't get a too restrictive muffler.
Also, the Hooker aerochamber, which I like that is relatively high flow and low sound with no packing to blow out. But what I don't like is they started making them in China now, when they used to be made in the US. Also, they only make them with a stainless core and aluminized case, they stopped making the complete stainless version. This may not be acceptable to you, not sure.
The Borla (or many of the same style that uses perforations and packing, like magnaflow, some of spintech's racing versions, dynomax, hooker maximum flow, etc) that have full flow through them with a perforated tube and packing (some have stainles packing as opposed to fiberglass packing that blows out over time), is probably going to give you a lot of noise reduction without much flow reduction. I just for the life of me don''t like the sound of a packing material exhaust. But many people love it, so you have decide what you like Greg. If you do go packing I think you would be happy with the stainless packing, should last longer.
When it comes to shear performance and sound reduction sometimes you just can't beat a Borla or something similar if you are looking for the quietest muffler that still flows almost as good as a straight section of pipe.
Flowmaster does make a flow through race muffler that is more like a resonator. Basically has a few larger OD steps inside with nothing impeding flow. They make them in stainless. I wonder what those would sound like as a resonator a couple feet or so behind the collector, followed by some Borlas back near the axle with some short fat 3" tailpipes. That might sound pretty good while allowing full 3" flow and reducing the sound to an acceptable level, but this is purely speculation on my part, I haven't tried it yet, but I might later this summer.
If you do some searches you can find some testing where they measured flow, hp, and dB levels of varying kinds of mufflers. This might be info you would be interested in Greg. Just keep in mind you will likely have more hp than those tests, so if you use the same muffler you would see a bigger loss. However, I think you will be fine if you stick with dual 3" and don't get a too restrictive muffler.
http://www.blackwidowexhaust.com/
Combine this with a resonator and their 300 series which is their largest case.
http://www.blackwidowexhaust.com/listen/listen
At the bottom of the page there is an apache with a 355, @secutright has one of the race venoms on his k5, its loud but not obnoxious. at least inside the truck, but I think youll get a nice tone from it without sacrificing the performance, plus all these are stainless and made in usa.. I have met the guys who make these and they are good people.
Combine this with a resonator and their 300 series which is their largest case.
http://www.blackwidowexhaust.com/listen/listen
At the bottom of the page there is an apache with a 355, @secutright has one of the race venoms on his k5, its loud but not obnoxious. at least inside the truck, but I think youll get a nice tone from it without sacrificing the performance, plus all these are stainless and made in usa.. I have met the guys who make these and they are good people.
