81 FWC, 87 K5

[metalneverdies]

After looking at the pics, yours isn't far off from what mine was like when I got it.

The rotten wood is an issue. Mine got the lower panels that bolt to the bed replaced in my rebuild. They only stapled the boards to the aluminum frame so it's not hard to replace. It does force a complete rebuild of the cabinet on the drives side. That's not a bad thing as the rest of the wood they used there was particle board and given the leaks yours had it's probably soggy.

That does give you options for changing the layout. This is a radical idea, but one I'm kicking around when I do the siding and canvas on mine. The major change would be eliminating the right side bench completely and the front part of the cabinet on the left. A forward split dinette would be created with seats behind the front seats but facing the middle. This would be similar to how a chalet floor plan is or the Blazer campers made by Hallmark. You would have one cabinet in each rear corner. Size would be dependent on how wide you made the seats. The seats still could convert into sleeping space, but it would be in the same direction as the upper bunk. This would force a change of windows to two smaller windows, but one on each side and eliminate the one on the back wall. Which would require a reskin of the siding.

If you don't want to go that far, the side dinette you propose is good too. It wouldn't sacrifice as much storage as one might think, just some of it will be between the seats in the middle and not secured inside the larger single seat. Adding a net between the two seats would keep stuff contained in that space while traveling. You'll find with use, anything not tied down or inside a space will move around a lot!

The latches could be tightened up with going to the next size up screw. Remember all that stuff is self tapping so going gonzo with an electric drill or impact to install the screws might have you wipe them out again. The front latches you can actually get to the backside and add a block of wood to the inside surface and run longer bolts with nuts to eliminate the self tappers into the aluminum.

The rear door is one thing I have not tackled in my rebuild yet. On these units they are actually framed out of wood. I'd like to replicate mine out of metal to eliminate the wobbly feel of the door in general.

As far as the canvas goes, it you are going to replace it, I agree in going taller by at least 10-12 inches. I can't sit upright in the upper bunk and that extra space would be nice. That forces a change for the lift panels and I'd definitely make them out of electrical conduit as it works the same if not better and is much cheaper to make than the factory style. Plus with yours being gone you lack the hinges to remake the factory style anyway. The process is simple and outlined in my build. It's a common mod used by other FWC campers over on wander the west too.

Ideally, you fix the roof, canvas and lift panels in one shot. Many take the roof off completely to work at a lower height. I'd plan on adding wiring in the roof for a vent fan and solar, even if you don't plan to put solar in yet. Now is the time to prep for it if it's apart. Adding rigid foam insulation between the framework Is my plan and a common thing to do to these. I will ditch the stock headliner for water resistant shower paneling in a light color to keep the inside bright.

You got a decent base to start with for sure. Needs all the same stuff mine did for sure.

How did the 5.3 do with the added aero drag and weight of the camper and trailer do on the trip? What gears and tire size are you running too?

Moving the dinette to the front is definitely a more common layout for the true slide ins and seems to be a good for for that floor plan. I like having the opening to the camper from the truck though and I am not sure I want to sacrifice the rear window to a cabinet. It was pretty handy for double checking my blind spot. I was going to try to not modify the exterior in an attempt to keep it somewhat original and save some money. If I am going to go that far I would look into new windows, etc.

I had seen a few FWC an other campers with the side dinette layout and it seemed the most open floor plan for how I was envisioning packing all of our gear, making quick stops on the road and still having some walking space / space for the dog(s) if its really cold or rainy.

I think we will definitely need to pull the top for the roof work. I will have to look into the wiring requirements for solar. Its definitely on the list of future wants. Also plan go to with the powered roof vent.

The shower paneling is interesting, are you worried about it trapping moisture?

The 5.3 did pretty well honestly. I wish I could have stayed in OD more. The extra weight of the trailer and the wind drag kept us in D quite often. I was running at about 2600 RPM trying to hold 65 MPH with my 33" tires and 3.73 gears. The only time I had a truly hard time accelerating was when I got stuck behind a semi going less than 10 MPH up Rutan Pass leaving CO. The Blazer still took off without problem but it made an odd sound. Not sure if it was the manual fan or my power steering, hopefully not the trans! We went over a lot of big mountains on the trip and the truck could have probably maintained 70+ on almost all of them if I wanted to force it. Its tuned for premium (better power and MPG) but I think I have an exhaust leak at each of the manifold flanges once everything heats up. So I switched to regular fuel because the O2's were reading pretty lean so the PCM was dumping in a bunch of fuel. With the trailer we got around 11-12 mpg and I was running 2600-3000 RPM most of that time. With the camper I had to slow down some because of the body roll and we were in less of a hurry as we saved part of a day driving after picking up the camper. I stopped checking MPG because any time we hit major wind I was back in the 2600-3000 RPM range, but we still got about the same mileage between fuel stops so I don't think the camper really made too big of a difference in MPG. The truck handles and drives pretty great based on the short trip around town without the trailer.

The 5.3 really lacked power at elevation though. Even 5-6K ft it was down on power pretty noticeably. That said, we had a cooler full of drinks and ice, tail gate in the truck, all of our gear for the week, extra fluids for the truck. Plus the weight of all the tools I could think to grab for working on just about anything on the truck.

This road trip and a previous trip with a 4.8L ext pickup to moab definitely have me worried about fuel range though. Debating going with the 31 gal tank but I am not sure how that fits onto a truck frame that originally had a 25 gal tank. I would also need a new fuel tank skid plate.

 

[ZooMad75]

I totally get not wanting to redo the outside. I was throwing the idea out there as a possibility if one wanted to go that far. I think the side dinette is a good option for your plans.

Your mileage seems consistent with mine with the camper on it. I have 35's and 4.10 gears. Elevation is where mine really sucked. On the flat ground you should be ok.

Blazers came with both size tanks. So a 31 gal unit will fit right in. You will need a different skid plate because they go with the size tank you have. At a 10mpg average it still gives a 300 mile range.

I have found if I kept my foot out of it and it could stay in OD, the 5.3 did knock down some decent mileage. The last two tanks on the way back from. Green River UT to home in Pueblo was 14 and 16. That was through the mountains too.

You probably figured out wind is just as much a factor as elevation. These things just suck driving into a headwind. Not much you can do to avoid it.

 

[metalneverdies]

Forgot to mention about sealing the rear of the camper off to the body. Using the Blazer top and bolting the camper to the body will pull it in slightly, but it still does not rest against the tailgate opening at all. I've used pipe insulation split in half with decent results. I've had to shove it into the gap underneath after install. Next time it's off I'll work up a better solution. It needs all the help it can get there. Moisture does not come in so much as it sucks in dust and dirt like a hoover. That big back wall at any decent speed creates a hell of a low pressure zone which is what causes it to suck in dirt like it does.

I was brainstorming with a buddy just yesterday to reconfigure the rear of the camper to eliminate the rear wall and use a pickup tailgate and make a lift up window or dutch doors that open sideways to allow better access and have a tailgate again. That's major surgery though and haven't really looked at the possibility of making it happen.

That would be a pretty cool change. I really wish a tailgate could be used, but its not the end of the world. The gap seems to be near 1.25" or so. I guess once the front seal is fixed with the portion of topper I will measure the gap more carefully and come up with a solution.

Currently, I am thinking of just adding a section of aluminum ~ 1" aluminum tube the bring the edge closer to the back of the truck bed and then get some thick rubber weather strip to seal to the camper with some 3m weather strip adhesive and then that should compress and make a water proof / exhaust fume proof seal on the back of the truck. We had to extend our exhaust to a ridiculous length to reduce the fumes. Prior to the extension we were literally getting sleepy from the fumes being so strong. I think the trailer made that low pressure zone even worse.

I guess an alternative solution might be some 90* aluminum L bar and use some self drilling screws and sealant to telescope it as far as required if it ends up being an odd sized gap. Then placing the rubber seal on that extension piece.

 

[metalneverdies]

I totally get not wanting to redo the outside. I was throwing the idea out there as a possibility if one wanted to go that far. I think the side dinette is a good option for your plans.

Your mileage seems consistent with mine with the camper on it. I have 35's and 4.10 gears. Elevation is where mine really sucked. On the flat ground you should be ok.

Blazers came with both size tanks. So a 31 gal unit will fit right in. You will need a different skid plate because they go with the size tank you have. At a 10mpg average it still gives a 300 mile range.

I have found if I kept my foot out of it and it could stay in OD, the 5.3 did knock down some decent mileage. The last two tanks on the way back from. Green River UT to home in Pueblo was 14 and 16. That was through the mountains too.

You probably figured out wind is just as much a factor as elevation. These things just suck driving into a headwind. Not much you can do to avoid it.

14 - 16 is much closer to what I had hoped to achieve. I think without the trailer that should definitely be possible. Plus fixing the exhaust leak.

I had debated trying to do something to smooth the corners between the truck and cab and maybe an air dam type thing for the overhead section to trap less air between the over hang and cab roof but it would probably just end up looking weird and not be effective at all. If the over hang was closer to how these sit on something like a Toyota then I would probably pursue it.

 

[ZooMad75]

14 - 16 is much closer to what I had hoped to achieve. I think without the trailer that should definitely be possible. Plus fixing the exhaust leak.

I had debated trying to do something to smooth the corners between the truck and cab and maybe an air dam type thing for the overhead section to trap less air between the over hang and cab roof but it would probably just end up looking weird and not be effective at all. If the over hang was closer to how these sit on something like a Toyota then I would probably pursue it.

If you have a better tune than I did, I'd say yours is possible. Mine used an aftermarket controller that did not fire the injectors individual in sequence like a stock setup does. It fired bank to bank which is somewhat wasteful for fuel. So an optimized tune would work wonders on cleaning up how mine ran. Which wasn't bad at all but I knew I left a little on the table.

The later FWC Blazer campers did actually have shorter cab over sections. They stopped right at the top of the windshield. If it was that short you might able to make a fairing to redirect the air.


I know this, driving with both windows down comes with heavy buffeting at highway speed. It's loud enough I could really use some intercoms to talk to my wife in the other seat.

 

[metalneverdies]

So I did a bunch of reading last night and a little today. Still finishing research for everything but the rough plan is:

Insulation:

• Insulate the whole camper with R-Max insulation and use great stuff in the cracks and gaps. If its all installed completely onto the backing of the exterior it should be a vapor seal and its vastly superior R rating to the OEM.
  • Maybe use Reflectix or similar to skin all of the roof and interior panels prior to attaching the finish panels for a thermal brake?
  • It looks like using it in that way may completely reduce its effectiveness though.
  • Maybe a thermal brake is over complicating things since it has a pop top anyways lol

• Insulate the truck floor with foam / foil backed heat and noise reducer. Also apply to the wheel wells and behind the stock side panels. Might even put a piece of R-Max back there? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PX2C8DC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A917DJU8KFW86&psc=1

• Use Reflectix or similar for the back side of all window coverings. Allows a way to keep heat in or out and does a good job of black out for sleeping. Also plan to eventually make a section to wrap around the pop up for extreme heat / cold as I will be using this to camp at the occasional track day (always super hot).

• Apply 80mil Sound deadener to the truck body. Floor, doors, roof, side panels to help cut down on road noise some.

Repairs for exterior / leak proofing:

• Remove factory screws, replace with stainless pan head screws. Repaint roof with white paint.

• Remove factory sealant and replace with 3M sealant.

• Remove factory drip lip and all trim / corner pieces, windows, door frame and replace the seals with butyl tape and new screws.

• Replace rotted wood sections with new. Paint and / or face with aluminium skin.

• Maybe go with a standard camper door latch / lock. I like ZooMad75's door latch.

General Repairs:

• Powered vent fan.

• Extend top height to sit up in bed and walk up right on floor.

• LED lights all around.

• Prep for solar.

• Re-do all electrical with modern system. Add a simple plug for shore power. Maybe setup an inverter or battery tender to automatically charge when plugged into 120v.

• Rebuild the rear door. Try to track down some trim, other wise maybe a friend could tig the frame to fix it.

• Re-skin the interior.

• Replace front wall of camper.

• Attach blazer top onto front wall of camper

• Plywood floor for the truck to secure interior. Originally I wanted to avoid this, but my floor is mint and I really don't want to go screwing a bunch of holes into it. I could use 3 or 4 of the factory bolts and holes to secure it to the truck.

This list should keep me busy for quite a while and will get the camper at least water tight and mold free. Once we get to this stage we will probably mount it back onto the truck for the interior stuff.

Speaking of interior, what the hell kind of staples are those lol. Never would have though to just staple it right into the aluminum.

 

[metalneverdies]

So I think I am still going to go with the 1" R-MAX on the roof. What did you guys do about the little vents in the roof on the front and rear? It seems like the ones in the front are especially a poor design feature. I feel like moisture would wick into the vent hole while driving in rain. Is it better to seal them?

I thought about using Fiberglass in the roof as it is slightly more breathable, but I would really like to just insulate the whole camper with the PolyISO R-Max foam.

 

[ZooMad75]

I haven't touched the little vents on mine. No issues getting wet driving in rain or snow.

I was planning on using foam in the roof on mine when I pull the headliner and prep for solar.

 

[Capt Ron]

So I think I am still going to go with the 1" R-MAX on the roof. What did you guys do about the little vents in the roof on the front and rear? It seems like the ones in the front are especially a poor design feature. I feel like moisture would wick into the vent hole while driving in rain. Is it better to seal them?

I thought about using Fiberglass in the roof as it is slightly more breathable, but I would really like to just insulate the whole camper with the PolyISO R-Max foam.

I haven't touched the little vents on mine. No issues getting wet driving in rain or snow.

I was planning on using foam in the roof on mine when I pull the headliner and prep for solar.

Help me out here.... what little vents?

 

[ZooMad75]

Help me out here.... what little vents?

The little aluminum caps on the trim strip on the edge of the roof. Two front and two rear. Probably an inch to inch and half wide.

 

[metalneverdies]

Help me out here.... what little vents?

These little guys.

 

[metalneverdies]

I got the camper off the truck without too much of an incident yesterday; a friend came over to help. It wasn't too bad to remove with the Brophy cable jacks. We ended up running the jacks to the absolute max lifting height and it was just enough. Anything more would have required an air down.

Today we picked up some 1" R-MAX sheets and spray glue. Then we started to tear into the camper. Started with carefully pulling off the carpet to get a better look at how things are assembled and where the main joints are. Then we stripped out the rest of the interior down to the studs.

We had one or two smaller rain storms before I was able to get the camper into the garage and the amount of water intrusion was insane. The stuff I had stored in the over cab area took on a lot of water and is ruined. The carpet in the middle of the truck floor was quite wet after the storm. There is also water marks and a lot of mold re-growth on the overcab wood after the rain too. The amount of mold under the carpet was crazy.

I am not sure what the hell caused the damage over the top of the truck cab. I assume the plywood for the bed was just flapping around at the seam beating the sheet metal but not damaging the paint too much. We also managed to not realize the over-cab was dragging on the truck roof for a minute during removal. Kind of bummed about tearing up the roof.

 

[metalneverdies]

I need to try and track down a new propane cubby I think. Mine is pretty rusted out. I could probably make one but its got to be a pretty common pre-made part I would think.

I was thinking doing a thermal brake between the aluminum frame and the Luan 1/8" plywood interior wall material with reflectix. Then I figured that was over kill because its a popup and that is such a huge thermal in-efficiency it would make the thermal brake on the walls trivial. However, after pulling off the original wall panels, I wonder if it might still be a good idea. Mostly just to help stop moisture collecting and soaking into the wood along the aluminum frame. All the walls had quite a bit of mold buildup and it was like an outline of the aluminum frame lol.

The corner construction near the propane cubby is pretty surprising. The frame just ends and its screwed to the wood. There is also a strip of plywood in each corner frame. Not really sure what its purpose is at this point. Very, very squishy and rotted though.

You can see the panel sag near the heater by the color difference in the wood paneling. Pretty bad sag.

 

[metalneverdies]

The rest I guess is just a photo dump of the interior stripped down. Next up is starting to rebuild the bedside panels. I am still not really happy with out they are just screwed into place. But if they hold fairly well with nasty rotted wood then I guess they would be adequate with new solid wood. I was originally planning on using Marine grade plywood for the panels and the over cab section. I am wondering now if I should just stick to some Baltic Burch plywood for weight concerns.

I also found the reason the camper latches are pulling away. They are screwed in using tiny screws into old wood and the screws look to have pulled loose / out of the wood.

 

[Capt Ron]

The little aluminum caps on the trim strip on the edge of the roof. Two front and two rear. Probably an inch to inch and half wide.

These little guys.

View attachment 352068

View attachment 352069

Interesting, my FWC is a very early model and does not have those. You definitely have a lot of ambition, I feel very lucky about the condition mine was in now.

 

[ZooMad75]

Interesting, my FWC is a very early model and does not have those. You definitely have a lot of ambition, I feel very lucky about the condition mine was in now.

Yeah as bad as I thought mine was, I did not have the amount of rot in the wood that this one has. I'm not surprised given the wet climate it came from. But it's just a matter of pulling the old rotten stuff out and replacing with fresh that is properly sealed.

Your cabover section having a seam down the middle is not normal. Having a seam right in the middle is a weak spot with any weight applied to in. It's just going to bow in the middle when the weight gets placed on it. My original particle board where it wasn't swelled up from moisture was 1" thick. We replaced the 1" thick stuff with a doubled-up section of plywood that was 3/4" and 5/8" thick. We screwed them together and used construction adhesive. I'm over 300 pounds and it does not flex at all with my fat arse up there.

With your teardown, you can see how cheap the construction really is on these older units. It can be improved upon greatly by anybody. The cabinet structure was all out of particleboard too, so any leakage is just going to suck up the wetness and swell. That's how your propane box rotted out for sure. That's saying a lot too, because I know mine and Ron's propane box was constructed out of galvanized sheet metal.

 

[metalneverdies]

I was hoping to make a lot more progress than I did this weekend but my slacking off was worth it for the free track day I was able to attend at Hallet, thanks to the local Subaru group. I was running the red R53 Mini in the pics. Link to track run. Ignore the outburst in the beginning lol; I was pretty excited to finally beat the 1:38.x I was running most of the day.

Made some more progress today and picked up a 24mm - 4x8 sheet for the over cab area and three 3/4" - 4x8 sheets of water resistant Baltic Birch for the rest of the camper.. Unfortunately, as I started to see the light at the end of the tunnel rebuilding I found several cracks in the frame. Now I am trying to track down someone willing to do some mobile tig welding. I have a Hobart Handler 190 but its not setup for aluminum. I guess if I can't find anybody I can get a spool gun and aluminum welding gas for my welder.

Trying to decide if I should deal with the hassle of pulling the outer skin back to repair the crack. That is a pretty big risk. Pulling the original rusted staples from the top 1" of the skin was hard enough to do without destroying the aluminum skin. Maybe I can get away with just welding the "front and rear" parts of the aluminum tube frame to the C-channel above it?

Getting the heater off was a major pain. The exhaust pipe for the heater was rusted to the slip joint and I had to dremel off the vent trim piece. Not sure what to do about it yet. I also need to really scrub down the heater after fighting with it. Now the whole exhaust and bottom panel is covered in PB blaster.

Otherwise, stripping it down has gone okay. Gave the camper a quick scrub down with 70% IPA just for general clean up. I will give it another good scrub before insulation when I finally get back to that step.

PS: Sorry about the order of the pics. Not sure how to put them in order without numbering the names or something.

 

[ZooMad75]

Nice progress. As far as the framework goes, FWC didn't weld every seam of every joint. You can see that in many of your pics. I guess they thought it would flex better, but it's consistent with other FWC units torn down to the framework. Some pull the skin and weld every seam, others just go after what they can get to. Depends on your level of OCD on how far you want to take it. I left mine alone for now and have not found any signs of a problem because of it.

One point to note on the passenger side, you've got a board that hung down, covered in carpet. It really isn't structural at all. But it did provide a point to screw the "L" brackets to for the bench on that side. I had originally put a board back in like that to allow me a spot to attach the bench to. It was surprising to find the amount of movement that occurred between side and the floor. It had pulled out screws I had put in the front side halfway into my first trip with it. My rev2 bench deleted the board and the bench was built as a complete box with a bottom and cut out for the wheel tub. I then screwed it directly to the plywood floor and let it float to the side. With that setup it didn't move, but would not tuck in as close with the board hanging in the way as it eats up what is good storage space.

If you are going to set up the side dinette, not having the board there would allow wider bases and give you access to a nice cubby space between the boxes and the interior wall in front and behind the wheel tub.

Looks like a fun track day too!

 

[metalneverdies]

Nice progress. As far as the framework goes, FWC didn't weld every seam of every joint. You can see that in many of your pics. I guess they thought it would flex better, but it's consistent with other FWC units torn down to the framework. Some pull the skin and weld every seam, others just go after what they can get to. Depends on your level of OCD on how far you want to take it. I left mine alone for now and have not found any signs of a problem because of it.

One point to note on the passenger side, you've got a board that hung down, covered in carpet. It really isn't structural at all. But it did provide a point to screw the "L" brackets to for the bench on that side. I had originally put a board back in like that to allow me a spot to attach the bench to. It was surprising to find the amount of movement that occurred between side and the floor. It had pulled out screws I had put in the front side halfway into my first trip with it. My rev2 bench deleted the board and the bench was built as a complete box with a bottom and cut out for the wheel tub. I then screwed it directly to the plywood floor and let it float to the side. With that setup it didn't move, but would not tuck in as close with the board hanging in the way as it eats up what is good storage space.

If you are going to set up the side dinette, not having the board there would allow wider bases and give you access to a nice cubby space between the boxes and the interior wall in front and behind the wheel tub.

Looks like a fun track day too!

It was pretty fun! My 2nd time on an actual track. Usually I just autocross.

So just to be clear, the wood you are referencing is the wood marked with red arrows. The red arrow wood panel doesn't add any rigidity to the wood marked with the green arrow?

Not having that would add a fair bit of room for the side dinette.

I was talking with a friend who has been a maintenance foreman for industrial stuff and he thinks I should avoid welding it because it will fail. Suggested using gussets. I think I will use some panel bond under the gussets and screws too on front and back of the cracked frame tubes.

I wasn't planning on welding anything until I found the main supports were ripped / cracked. I think that will really help reduce the over cab movement too.

 

[ZooMad75]

It was pretty fun! My 2nd time on an actual track. Usually I just autocross.

So just to be clear, the wood you are referencing is the wood marked with red arrows. The red arrow wood panel doesn't add any rigidity to the wood marked with the green arrow?

Not having that would add a fair bit of room for the side dinette.

I was talking with a friend who has been a maintenance foreman for industrial stuff and he thinks I should avoid welding it because it will fail. Suggested using gussets. I think I will use some panel bond under the gussets and screws too on front and back of the cracked frame tubes.

I wasn't planning on welding anything until I found the main supports were ripped / cracked. I think that will really help reduce the over cab movement too.

View attachment 352501

Yep, the verticle board you pointed to with red arrows really don't add any structure to the rest of the camper. One reason I think they added it, was to close off the side and give a spot for the seat back to rest against for the bench. My issue was the sitting height of the original bench was too low to be comfortable for my 6ft tall body. So rasing the bench up made it more comfortable but also eliminated the need for the side board since the bench was flush with the horizontal board under the window.

Panelbond and gussets isn't a bad idea at all.