What he said. Bilstein for sure if at all possible some smooth body Kings or Fox or anything like that. Look for used stuff on ksl
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'86 K30 Crew Cab Build
- Thread starter LNielson
- Start date
Thanks man, still not as bitchin as your 8.1/NV4500 but getting there. I'd love to see your squarebody collection in person too.
I'm running stock Ferd Superduty shocks right now. I know I need to upgrade to something better. I pull the occasional trailer/car hauler. More often just loaded to the gills with rocks/dirt/firewood/whatever.
I got the early 93-95 NV4500. My truck has the round pattern NP205 with long 32 spline input. I'm planning to do the Advance Adapter spacer and I understand that it should just about bolt right in with maybe just a little crossmember rework. I'm going to drill and tap the transmission case for the upper bolts and use the stock hydro bellhousing/clutch linkage.
I want to make sure the trans is good to go before I tear into the swap, so still don't know what I'm up against there, hopefully it won't need too much TLC. I've never had one of these NV4500's apart before, but I'm not scared of diving in.
The early versions of the NV4500 have the external slave on them. You can certainly go the route of taking the SM465 bell housing and drilling on the 4500 to bolt it up, but if you don't want to do that, you can just use the stock NV4500 bell housing. Then use the stock NV4500 slave cylinder and hydro line, then run the line up to your square body master cylinder, and then just adapt the two together with a $5 swaglock adapter. That's what I did...was easy peasy! Either way will work, just letting you know the different options you could do to bolt the 4500 up.
With the NP205...you have the same 205 I have, and yes, with the AA adapter/spacer, it will bolt up just fine. You will most likely have to do just a tad bit of clearance work on the output housing of the NV4500 to make totally sure the shift-rail on the 205 clears in all the gear ranges, but its just a small amount of grinding. I know I had to grind a bit on mine to make sure it cleared, but not terrible. You can look at getting the "shifter bracket" from AA too so you can use your stock shifter in the stock location. It's a pretty good piece, but I want to brace mine up a little more as it seems like it could bend when you go to shift a tough shifting 205. Other than that it's nice. And if you get that bracket too, you need to get an adjustable shift linkage as the stock one won't work...I picked one up from JB fab for pretty cheap.
You should not have to do any cross-member work at all...literally should bolt up in the stock wholes in the frame, and the trans mount on the cross-member currently in your truck will bolt up just fine to the NV4500 too! The 4500 swap is actually pretty darn easy, especially in your case where you already have a manual truck. I had to install hydro pedals too (that job blew cheese!).
Good info for sure, thanks for sharing.
I don't have the NV4500 bellhousing, just the trans, so I think I'll just drill/tap the case and run the one I have.
I'm thinking I'll twin stick the 205 when I make the swap. Any insights as to the figment with say an ORD twin stick setup? I suppose I should call and ask them.
I've heard horror stories about that pedal swap, I'm glad this truck was already a manual trans. I'm not envious of that learning experience at all.
Yeah, then for sure keeping your 465 bell housing is way easier...that way works just fine...and bonus is you just keep your existing slave/master cylinders, so that's nice.
I know Larry did a twin stick on his K10 (8.1/NV4500/NP205). Shouldn't be an issue at all since ORD's twin sticks have adjustable linkages, so you can make it work for sure.
The pedal swap is just a hassle all the way around. If you remove the front seat It would be better, but the fact that you have to remove the whole steering column, and it's still way up under the dash is just annoying. Literally took me almost an entire Saturday to do, and my hands/arms were hashed from it too. Oh well, pain is gain, haha!
I had my pedal swap done in all of about 3 hours, but my 78 has less wiring to deal with also which sped the process up tremendously!
I had a pronounced driveline vibration when I first lifted this truck, and my slip splines were pretty worn. At that time I played around with shimming the carrier bearing down 1.5" and greatly reduced the vibration to where I thought it was just worn out front end parts or a tire imbalance. It would start about 45 and stop around 60. When I had the new drivelines built the vibes decreased some too.
My truck has a two piece 8' long rear shaft, fixed yoke NP205, the slip joint is in the first section. Rear suspension is lifted with a 4" block that has a cast in 4 degree angle that rotates the pinion up. I measured the angles with an angle finder and this is what I ended up with.
My carrier bearing is above the driveline in reality, this is with the 1.5" shim. Not ideal, but I ran it like this for a long time and it wasn't too bad.
I pulled out the shim above the bearing and this is what I get for angles, along with a pretty significant vibration coming on about 60 mph. Basically the t-case yoke and front shaft are lined up and the second shaft and pinion yoke are lined right up with a 4 degree kink in the middle.
The local guy who built my shafts told me to put it in with the front shaft slip yoke 90 degrees out of phase from the fixed yoke, which I did.
A coworker of mine had a former life as a certified diesel mechanic and gave me some really good Spicer Driveline Install tech. (I'll attach a copy if anyone wants it.)
He tells me that I'd be better off dropping my front shaft 1-1.5 degrees and fixing my pinion to be parallel or 1 degree down from the first shaft. Also that I should turn the yokes of the front shaft in line rather than 90 out like they are now.
In the Spicer info it says that if your front shaft and t-case yoke are within .5 degrees of each other you should put your yokes 90 degrees out of phase like mine are but not why?
I think I can mill 4 degree angle out of the lift blocks and get my pinion right where it needs to be, I'll try it this weekend and report my findings. I'm going to rework the whole back suspension and will be doing this all over again but need it to be driveable until then.
Anybody have any input for me on driveline phasing?
My truck has a two piece 8' long rear shaft, fixed yoke NP205, the slip joint is in the first section. Rear suspension is lifted with a 4" block that has a cast in 4 degree angle that rotates the pinion up. I measured the angles with an angle finder and this is what I ended up with.
My carrier bearing is above the driveline in reality, this is with the 1.5" shim. Not ideal, but I ran it like this for a long time and it wasn't too bad.
I pulled out the shim above the bearing and this is what I get for angles, along with a pretty significant vibration coming on about 60 mph. Basically the t-case yoke and front shaft are lined up and the second shaft and pinion yoke are lined right up with a 4 degree kink in the middle.
The local guy who built my shafts told me to put it in with the front shaft slip yoke 90 degrees out of phase from the fixed yoke, which I did.
A coworker of mine had a former life as a certified diesel mechanic and gave me some really good Spicer Driveline Install tech. (I'll attach a copy if anyone wants it.)
He tells me that I'd be better off dropping my front shaft 1-1.5 degrees and fixing my pinion to be parallel or 1 degree down from the first shaft. Also that I should turn the yokes of the front shaft in line rather than 90 out like they are now.
In the Spicer info it says that if your front shaft and t-case yoke are within .5 degrees of each other you should put your yokes 90 degrees out of phase like mine are but not why?
I think I can mill 4 degree angle out of the lift blocks and get my pinion right where it needs to be, I'll try it this weekend and report my findings. I'm going to rework the whole back suspension and will be doing this all over again but need it to be driveable until then.
Anybody have any input for me on driveline phasing?
Nothing real helpful. All the big truck stuff I have ever done is always put in phase. I have heard of putting them out of phase but I do not know when to do it or why?
This is the only thing I've ever seen that says to do it that way. I wonder if the joints out of phase on a very slight angle gives it just enough movement to keep the needles moving and lubed?
The local Six States guy told me to run mine this way, maybe I'll go ask him why?I'm going to try dropping the front shaft down 1 degree from the tcase and put the yokes in phase.
Probably cuz usually the opposite angles is what is supposed to keep the needles rotating I think and it looks like that can be an issue with a multi-piece driveline. I'm not picky on vibrations and noise though so I usually don't notice if stuff is out just a little. My K5 has a right rear tire out of round that I have been living with for over a year.
I resemble that...
I ran this truck for years with a less than perfect driveline setup, the vibe was slight and it was being masked by other worn out stuff, plus squeaks and rattles, plus my hearing is less than perfect from years and years of loud exhausts, guns, industrial noise, etc. It's a 30 year old truck and I'm a realist. I will gladly accept and ignore some quirks, just trying to keep my new parts alive as long as possible and since I have eliminated a bunch of the other sources of noise/vibration it makes this one feel like a bigger deal.
I ran this truck for years with a less than perfect driveline setup, the vibe was slight and it was being masked by other worn out stuff, plus squeaks and rattles, plus my hearing is less than perfect from years and years of loud exhausts, guns, industrial noise, etc. It's a 30 year old truck and I'm a realist. I will gladly accept and ignore some quirks, just trying to keep my new parts alive as long as possible and since I have eliminated a bunch of the other sources of noise/vibration it makes this one feel like a bigger deal.
Yeah don't need to go killing your new drivelines and gears with stuff not being set up correctly.
Here's your reasons on phasing.
I started this thread in the "Garage" to discuss driveline related stuff: https://ck5.com/forums/threads/2-piece-driveshaft-phasing.332009
I ended up milling the taper out of my lift block, and building a 1/4" zero rate to keep my lift height as close to the same as possible. The lift blocks had a 4 degree taper in them, mine are parallel top/bottom surfaces now.
Here's what the modified (front) unmodified (rear) block looked like, The finished height was 3.850". I had to redrill the locating hole in the top surface too.
My rear shaft is now set up with the pinion yoke and shaft one directly in line, 3 degrees down. Shaft two is 9 degrees down (6 degree operating angle on the center u-joint). The pinion yoke is 3 degrees down (6 degree operating angle).
My shaft was balanced with the first shaft slip yoke 90 degrees out of phase. That is definitely the orientation it runs smoothest in. I still get a little vibration at 2,000 - 2,500 Rpm in 4th gear around 40 mph but it is pretty smooth above that as fast as I went, maybe 75 mph.
Here's one of my homemade 1/4" zero rates going in. I made then from a scrap piece of 1/4" x 2.5" flat bar. I probably should have taken the time to clean and paint the springs.
My slip splines have just a touch of play in them, maybe that is where the residual vibration is coming from. I pumped some grease into the slip yoke, maybe a little too much, because it squeezed out the hole inside the yoke by the u-joint and flung out in weird stringy patterns all over the underside of my truck when I test drove it right after. Oh well, i can use some rustproofing...
I ended up milling the taper out of my lift block, and building a 1/4" zero rate to keep my lift height as close to the same as possible. The lift blocks had a 4 degree taper in them, mine are parallel top/bottom surfaces now.
Here's what the modified (front) unmodified (rear) block looked like, The finished height was 3.850". I had to redrill the locating hole in the top surface too.
My rear shaft is now set up with the pinion yoke and shaft one directly in line, 3 degrees down. Shaft two is 9 degrees down (6 degree operating angle on the center u-joint). The pinion yoke is 3 degrees down (6 degree operating angle).
My shaft was balanced with the first shaft slip yoke 90 degrees out of phase. That is definitely the orientation it runs smoothest in. I still get a little vibration at 2,000 - 2,500 Rpm in 4th gear around 40 mph but it is pretty smooth above that as fast as I went, maybe 75 mph.
Here's one of my homemade 1/4" zero rates going in. I made then from a scrap piece of 1/4" x 2.5" flat bar. I probably should have taken the time to clean and paint the springs.
My slip splines have just a touch of play in them, maybe that is where the residual vibration is coming from. I pumped some grease into the slip yoke, maybe a little too much, because it squeezed out the hole inside the yoke by the u-joint and flung out in weird stringy patterns all over the underside of my truck when I test drove it right after. Oh well, i can use some rustproofing...
This is the bumper I'm getting ready to build, I'm still tweaking the design to handle the winching duty. Basically just a laser cut bent 1/4" plate, will be very easy to fit and weld up. I'll have a local fab shop laser out and bend the pieces and I'll weld it up at home, looks like it will weigh close to 100lbs without the winch.
I will be trimming the fangs off my front fenders. This could be made to work without trimming by ditching the side pieces.
This bumper will protrude out in front of the grill about as far as the factory bumper. I may adjust the height for the 1" body lift I think I'm going to install. I'm matching the general shape/design of my rear bumper.
How terrible will it be to have to reach under to get to the winch clutch handle? I've never had a winch on a vehicle before. Maybe I should cut an access hole through bumper?
I will be trimming the fangs off my front fenders. This could be made to work without trimming by ditching the side pieces.
This bumper will protrude out in front of the grill about as far as the factory bumper. I may adjust the height for the 1" body lift I think I'm going to install. I'm matching the general shape/design of my rear bumper.
How terrible will it be to have to reach under to get to the winch clutch handle? I've never had a winch on a vehicle before. Maybe I should cut an access hole through bumper?
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When you need the winch, it's not usually in the best conditions or spot. I've fought with my fair share of winch controls, including in frozen slop. I can only imagine the frustration in having to futz with one that I couldn't see or one I didn't have good access.
I reach under, it's not that bad. Then again I don't do mud and swamp "wheeling" either.
Yeah, like skunked I have an abomb bumper up front and it puts the winch in the same exact position as what LNielson is proposing for his bumper...I've never had a problem with it (run an Engo E10000 winch). I just reach under just like skunked said...not bad at all. Been running it like that since 2012.
Let's just say I've never had the thought, "Man I wish this was mounted a different way"
