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Thanks . Guess I'll be checking my hanger out this weekend, but right now I've got a flex plate issue to deal with before Halloween.
CK5
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A '69 Build... "Brought to you by Don Juan Productions" Full index added to page #1
That sucks Mike, but at least you found the cause. Hopefully somebody "more smarter" with frames/suspension can chime in and help find an easy fix for you.
Now that I look at the entire front drivers shackle, it took a hard hit strait down at some time. The rivets are bent at the top and a gap at the bottom. Though, not enough of a gap to bring everything in right.
I'm at a crossroads of, find another drivers shackle from P&P and bring in the front square with tube for the winch, or call enough is enough. Plate these rails and with some with help, figure out a simple link.....or something...
Just can't leave it though..
So as I see it to get em even you have 3 or 4 options. Option 1 cut off all the rivets put brackets back in place with bolts weld in.
Take it to a frame shop have em tweak it and figure out where and how exactly its bent or if its bent at all and the problems are just basically old frame.
Next build your own brackets careful measurements, and weld on.
Next is yah links the most expensive and best one
. Depending on money flow I think I would build my own brackets and weld em on and brace em up. I think that would be the cheapest and best option of the non link option
Care for an opinion or two?.... 
Start with the framerail tweakage. Get those vertical numbers back to 0.0* by either adding a beefy new front crossmember, or by drilling out the rivets in the stock one that's in there and start throwing washers behind the spots that are tweaking inboard. Keep a close eye on the core support hole spacing.... As you fix the tweak, you may end up with holes too wide for the bolts to go through correctly. Use the measurement from the core support holes as your "target" value.
Once you have the vertical framerails perfect you can deal with the spacing issues of the leaf packs.
My experience is that rectangular box tubing makes a great front crossmember and can pull out all sorts of frame "weirdness" up front once you snug all the bolts down and cinch the frame to it.
EDIT: Doing this kind of adjustment with the front end sitting on its springs is a bit risky, since the truck is going to settle and move around on you. Maybe lock-out the springs with a set of jackstands and make sure that the frame is level (across the front) before you start making other adjustments. Otherwise you'll be creating a real mess for yourself when it's time to hang sheetmetal.
-G
Start with the framerail tweakage. Get those vertical numbers back to 0.0* by either adding a beefy new front crossmember, or by drilling out the rivets in the stock one that's in there and start throwing washers behind the spots that are tweaking inboard. Keep a close eye on the core support hole spacing.... As you fix the tweak, you may end up with holes too wide for the bolts to go through correctly. Use the measurement from the core support holes as your "target" value.
Once you have the vertical framerails perfect you can deal with the spacing issues of the leaf packs.
My experience is that rectangular box tubing makes a great front crossmember and can pull out all sorts of frame "weirdness" up front once you snug all the bolts down and cinch the frame to it.
EDIT: Doing this kind of adjustment with the front end sitting on its springs is a bit risky, since the truck is going to settle and move around on you. Maybe lock-out the springs with a set of jackstands and make sure that the frame is level (across the front) before you start making other adjustments. Otherwise you'll be creating a real mess for yourself when it's time to hang sheetmetal.
-G
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We are a little too redneck up here in NorCal for Deuling. Those Skinny pants that he wears, would prolly get the poor kid shot. He obviously has enough problems with his attire, I just couldn't do that to him.
I like the kid, skinny pants and all.
I dont wear my good jeans when im working in the poop, or diggin holes so ida been just fine layin some pipe for ya
Well, I think it's obvious it needs to be braced, so even if you straighten it out you will need to brace it so it doesnt bend again. So I would just try to brace it so it pulls it back straight when you cinch it up, or clamp it straight and weld some new bracing in. Once you get that done, link it! ha ha
I can see you are on thinking about it so I am going to talk about it so you think about it more.
As far as links go, I would build my same front suspension over again if I had to, except for the FOA shocks. I think those are coming off for some Kings in less than a year. But the radius arms work very well while still clearing my long tubes and allowing for full steering angle and a somewhat low ride height. I couldn't make a 3 or 4 link do that with the constraints I had, I always had one trade off. Now a 3 link might have slightly more articulation, (until I take one upper link bolt out), but for me it already has plenty and I never even take the bolt out, and with long enough radius arms the adjustability of a 3 link is kind of irrelavent unless you are in a race class or something.
I can see you are on thinking about it so I am going to talk about it so you think about it more.
As far as links go, I would build my same front suspension over again if I had to, except for the FOA shocks. I think those are coming off for some Kings in less than a year. But the radius arms work very well while still clearing my long tubes and allowing for full steering angle and a somewhat low ride height. I couldn't make a 3 or 4 link do that with the constraints I had, I always had one trade off. Now a 3 link might have slightly more articulation, (until I take one upper link bolt out), but for me it already has plenty and I never even take the bolt out, and with long enough radius arms the adjustability of a 3 link is kind of irrelavent unless you are in a race class or something.
Option 1 cut off all the rivets put brackets back in place with bolts weld in.
Next is yah links the most expensive and best one
I think that is where I'm going to start first. Cut off all the rivets, bolt it all up and see what I have. With the way that it is currently, I can gain a couple of degrees just by the bolts. Once all is at least tight to the frame, I'll re-configure what the plan is.
Care for an opinion or two?....
-G
You know that I always really appreciate your opinion. Sometimes I have swayed away, but always had it in the back of my mind.
I fully agree on the big box. I always think of your hitch mount when that comes to mind.
I dont wear my good jeans when im working in the poop, or diggin holes so ida been just fine layin some pipe for ya
DUDE, with that new news, you're always welcome at my home..
Well, I think it's obvious it needs to be braced, so even if you straighten it out you will need to brace it so it doesnt bend again. So I would just try to brace it so it pulls it back straight when you cinch it up, or clamp it straight and weld some new bracing in. Once you get that done, link it! ha ha
I can see you are on thinking about it so I am going to talk about it so you think about it more.
As far as links go, I would build my same front suspension over again if I had to, except for the FOA shocks. I think those are coming off for some Kings in less than a year. But the radius arms work very well while still clearing my long tubes and allowing for full steering angle and a somewhat low ride height. I couldn't make a 3 or 4 link do that with the constraints I had, I always had one trade off. Now a 3 link might have slightly more articulation, (until I take one upper link bolt out), but for me it already has plenty and I never even take the bolt out, and with long enough radius arms the adjustability of a 3 link is kind of irrelavent unless you are in a race class or something.
I appreciate the info on the links. Going to spend some time in your thread again today, seeing where everything was installed. I don't know if I'd have room under there with all of the other stuff that I have going on. Just think of it this way, install the 7100's in the back and get come Kings or something for the front...Open canvas, so to speak.
Thanks a lot guys. I felt pretty dumb last night when I found it. I've been looking at the front of the truck for how long now ???? I guess that I was always looking up at the cage and such. Should have spent some more time looking down.
Here's a couple pics of those rivets.
Hard to see the gap at the bottom, but it's there.
How out out it is.
Looks like this even moved some.
and the pass side
At this point, I sure am glad that I wanted to hang all of the sheetmetal before I locked it all in with the engine cage. That would have sucked..
It happens to the best of us...
Remember when I was trying to build my engine cradle and I was off by 3/4" from side-to-side? I got some Chinese take-out and that seemed to help.
Measure EVERYTHING and drop plumb lines, check your angles etc. if something doesn't check out you've got to find it before you burn in all that new structure up front.
-G
Remember when I was trying to build my engine cradle and I was off by 3/4" from side-to-side? I got some Chinese take-out and that seemed to help.
Measure EVERYTHING and drop plumb lines, check your angles etc. if something doesn't check out you've got to find it before you burn in all that new structure up front.
-G
I hear ya, Greg. I'll push through, just thought that I was really seeing the light at the end of the tunnel before this. It's not a huge deal, just another thing when you build a rig from the ground up, I guess.
Spent some time in Heath's thread again this morning. You guys (Greg, Eric, Heath) are nuts with all of the link stuff. Just the math would kill me on the entire project before I even cut my first piece of PVC for mock up.. lol
It does look like a lot of fun though.
Spent some time in Heath's thread again this morning. You guys (Greg, Eric, Heath) are nuts with all of the link stuff. Just the math would kill me on the entire project before I even cut my first piece of PVC for mock up.. lol
It does look like a lot of fun though.
I absolutely love the attention to detail you are showing here. I wish I would have had the time, money, patience and place to work back when I did my first rebuild. The shortcuts I took are really biting me now in misaligned panels and alot of other issues.
Anyway, I just wanted to give you props and let you know how much I love learning about these tiny details and how to find and fix them.
Anyway, I just wanted to give you props and let you know how much I love learning about these tiny details and how to find and fix them.
Thanks Ash. That really does mean a lot. Especially when you run into stuff like this, on this long of a build.
In one hand, I'm happy that I found what it was that my eye was seeing. On the other, I wish that it just wasn't there..
Especially when you run into stuff like this, on this long of a build. In one hand, I'm happy that I found what it was that my eye was seeing. On the other, I wish that it just wasn't there..
Don't let the math scare you, most of the math was for the back suspension I haven't done yet. For the front suspension w/ radius arms just keep the arms long and low (but not too low they get in the way), and keep your panhard bar as parallel and equal length to the draglink as possible and you'll be fine. Also, moving them inward toward the back helps steering tire clearance, reduces bind, and decreases roll steer, but too much will reduce axle control. Also, keep the draglink as high as you can and not have some awkward weak brackets on the axle while still clearing the frame and engine.
The back is where you need to worry about most of the math, and the 4 link calculator they created does all that for you!
Speaking of which, I need to update the remaining posts I haven't, those had the math pictures in them I think.
Lol... I found the perfect thread for me...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/170588-front-links-dummies.html
It also looks like roughstuff has a pretty easy prefab mount that may work.
http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/panhardtrackbar.html
Does the rear mount need a lot of math or does it really mount close to the rear u-joint of the front driveshaft? Too close to the axle and it will bind going up an incline, too long and it cuts down on the belly clearance, type of thing?
I see you guys with your super fancy drawings of two wheels and some lines that point to the middle and such. Is that pretty much only for the 4 link systems. I really don't know what I'm looking at when I see those.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/170588-front-links-dummies.html
It also looks like roughstuff has a pretty easy prefab mount that may work.
http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/panhardtrackbar.html
Does the rear mount need a lot of math or does it really mount close to the rear u-joint of the front driveshaft? Too close to the axle and it will bind going up an incline, too long and it cuts down on the belly clearance, type of thing?
I see you guys with your super fancy drawings of two wheels and some lines that point to the middle and such. Is that pretty much only for the 4 link systems. I really don't know what I'm looking at when I see those.
Lol... I found the perfect thread for me...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/170588-front-links-dummies.html
It also looks like roughstuff has a pretty easy prefab mount that may work.
http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/panhardtrackbar.html
Does the rear mount need a lot of math or does it really mount close to the rear u-joint of the front driveshaft? Too close to the axle and it will bind going up an incline, too long and it cuts down on the belly clearance, type of thing?
I see you guys with your super fancy drawings of two wheels and some lines that point to the middle and such. Is that pretty much only for the 4 link systems. I really don't know what I'm looking at when I see those.
You talking radius arms here?
It doesn't need a lot of math no. Wherever you put the rear mount will be your instant center, it will be fixed and won't change with ride height like a 4 link does. shorter and higher will give you more antidive under braking. Longer and lower will give you less. Also, the longer the arms are, the less bind there will be under articulation, because the same axle articulation will be less angle on the arms. The opposite is true with the vertical spread of the bolts on the axle end. The more spread you have the more axle control you have, but the more bind you will have too. I'd say keep your arms at least 40" long minimum as a rule of thumb.
Yeah, I sure was. They talked about it a lot in that first link from PBB. I was thinking that I understood some of it, then you went on writing more about it and I'm all lost again.
I need to do a lot more reading.
I think that the only real reason, I'm even considering this, is I never liked the length or shackle angle on the Alcans/ORD's.
The coilovers and the ends are really the only big $$'s correct. Or am I missing something?
Yeah, I sure was. They talked about it a lot in that first link from PBB. I was thinking that I understood some of it, then you went on writing more about it and I'm all lost again.
I need to do a lot more reading.
I think that the only real reason, I'm even considering this, is I never liked the length or shackle angle on the Alcans/ORD's.
The coilovers and the ends are really the only big $$'s correct. Or am I missing something?
Dear God!
I can promise you that you'll finish correcting the frame tweakage WAY faster than you will scratch-build a link suspension up front! (BTW, I seriously doubt your OCD will allow you ignore the frame issues, just because you went with links)
If you get the entire truck built and simply MUST have links, you can do that as a pretty basic retrofit after the fact. The new links mounts can be built to replace factory hangers and use existing frame holes for simplicity.... But as you've already seen, there is quite a bit of reading to do before you'll understand the principles of link design.
It seems hard to believe that Excel spreadsheet is a side-project I did almost 10 years ago! All those brain cells were tortured but I'm still not ready for my first test drive.
-G
Dear God!
-G
That is all I need to see on my phone on the way home to have tears running down my face because I was laughing so damn hard.
I know, I know
It was a fun day killing time at work thinking of linking the front, but I think we all have me figured out enough to know that I'm going to try the simple fix first. That includes the frame and that drivers hanger. I want to keep moving forward and in the time being I'll do some research on this "Link thing" and maybe someday decide to do it. Thanks for bringing me down to earth for a second Greg. You know I need some concrete boots sometimes to keep my thoughts a little in check with my capabilities.
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I only went to work today. When did we think we were going to links and radius arms and math and readingthat make me head hurt. Thank god you came to your senses and now get that bitch back together and drive it for awhile. By the way you need to finish it so we can get another GMOTH under our belts
that make me head hurt. Thank god you came to your senses and now get that bitch back together and drive it for awhile. By the way you need to finish it so we can get another GMOTH under our belts
Sorry Chris. I'm all better now. 
Just a quick deviation in the grand plan, but only in my melon, thank god. lol
I'll get back out there and get this thing figured out. We should be back on track and an update by next Monday..
Just a quick deviation in the grand plan, but only in my melon, thank god. lolI'll get back out there and get this thing figured out. We should be back on track and an update by next Monday..
I'm of the different nature, as many months as you have this down, a radius arm suspension is not that significant. And I to spend that much time and money and the rig and still have leaves seems silly to me. It's like buying 2003 Corvette and installing an old gasser front axle.
Now I'm all about getting it back together and using it in the meantime. However, I did that with my rear suspension and now that has to change too. The leaves really don't compare with the links at all.
Don't get me wrong though, I thought my front links would take me about 3 weeks to complete, and it ended up taking me 6 weeks with many late nights.
Now I'm all about getting it back together and using it in the meantime. However, I did that with my rear suspension and now that has to change too. The leaves really don't compare with the links at all.
Don't get me wrong though, I thought my front links would take me about 3 weeks to complete, and it ended up taking me 6 weeks with many late nights.
