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A '69 Build... "Brought to you by Don Juan Productions" Full index added to page #1

Overview Gallery Discussion
I do hear you and understand Heath. I want to keep on with the plan for the time being though.

No matter what, I need to fix the frame. I don't think that it will take more than a few hours to do. Cut off the drivers hanger with the bent rivets, install with bolts. Maybe, if needed, fab up a front crossmember.

Once that is all good to go, move on to the front cage and shock hoops. These would still all be the same (14") shocks or coilovers. I already have the zero rate in, so the front axle shouldn't need to move forward anymore than it is. I like the room that it has given me behind the front tire. It also gives me a reason to cut off the front fang. Just never really liked them on a bigger 1st gen.

By that time all of the sheetmetal will be hung and perfect. Actually, with the two extra washers on the pass side core that I have now. the front end is 1/4" off, but all of my door, rocker, A, cowl and fender gaps are really perfect. Want to set the hood on, with the hinges just to make sure though.

I can move on to the seats (leaning towards just having the originals re-done now) with all of the tube work and such. Come up with a console and shifter. I don't think that I'll have the room to use anything but a cable shifter with all of the other tube work.

Figure out finally how to install the HAD flanges that I have for the 60, 14 and doubler. Jess, said that he would help me with those though. Figure out the rear shocks and how they are going to come into play, if any, with the rear seat mounts.

Finally mount the dash and figure out the heater system. At that time I can run some garage door cable inside of the cage (for future wiring) and weld the cage up.

I still have so many thing floating on this rig it's pretty insane. All of these would need to be done, before I moved on with something so crucial as a front link.

Basically, I think that is about 6 months more work and a lot more cash.

Once all of that is done, I can lift the body off of the frame and get the lizard skin on. At that time, when the body is off, would be a perfect time to finish up the frame, and install some mounts for links if wanted by that time. That will give me a 1/2 a year+ to understand what a link system is and how they actually work.

See, I have a plan, I just need to keep everything in order, or I fear, the entire rig won't work when done.

Have you read the book by Milliken on suspension? I was thinking of picking that up and do a some reading to understand all of the lingo first. I don't know really what any of these terms mean yet like, rear steer, bump steer, brake dive, wristed, antisquat and all of the other terms that I should know before I build something that I'm going to have me family in.

Don't worry, or lose faith in me. It's not off the table yet, just need to follow through with all of the other stuff first. I think the springs will hold up the frame as a good mock up tool until then.

Remember, all of this is new to me. I never have really done any of this before. Heck, the first time I welded anything was two days after I started to cut this thing up. As a learn more, I'll become more confident in my abilities to stretch my envelope further. Until then, it's baby steps, so to speak.
 
Don't worry, even if you keep the leaves I won't lose faith in you, you are doing an excellent job and learnnig a lot in the process, and your attention to detail shows. Whatever you do I am sure it will turn out a great truck.

As for books, no I haven't read the Milliken book. And from reading the reviews that probably shouldn't be the first book you get, it's a little expensive and it seems to be catered more toward the engineering program with more complex math I would guess, but I could be wrong since I haven't read it.

I would suggest you read this to start. It's mainly about rear suspensions and 4 links. And it is about drag cars, so it doesn't really cover roll steer or front suspensions, brake dive, etc, but it does cover anti squat and instant center, etc. Also, keep in mind a radius arm is basically a ladder bar flipped backwards and installed in a front suspension. And brake dive is simply the opposite of antisquat, since it is the front suspensiona and not the rear.

http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/info/Launching_A_Drag_Car.htm

And these articles help a little, remember the 4 link calculator does the math for you for the rear.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/suspension/131_0306_four_link_suspension_part_1/

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techar...0307_four_link_suspension_part_2/viewall.html

Also, consider order herb adams chassis engineering. Now, this is biased toward road racing, and most of it is about handling, but it does give you a good idea of how the suspension works and what to keep in mind when you are doing it. The only problem is its a bit dated and doesn't talk about 4 links enough, and some of the suspension designs are way outdated as well. But it's also only $16.

http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engin...TF8&qid=1349273398&sr=8-1&keywords=herb+adams

I did some searches for something more modern with 4 links and offroad suspension and it seems like it doesn't really exist, or it exists and has bad reviews because it's not the info you need.
 
X2 on the Herb Adams book...

It's an easy read. Chapter 12 - Frame Design is worth the price all by itself... you'll really see the effects of torsion on a frame design, what people THINK works...and what ACTUALLY works.

I've got a couple of the Milliken books. They are like $90 ea and filled with great mind numbing formulas. I've never had the time to sitdown and struggle through all that math, though I'm sure if I did it would probably be useful someday.

-G
 
Thanks guys... :waytogo:

I ordered the Adams book for $16.00 off of Amazon today. Hopefully I'll be able to follow along next time someone puts up one of those perty drawings with the two wheels and lines and stuff. :pimp:
 
A very slow moving house in NorCal this weekend. :p: Friday night my partner and I had a huge grand opening party at the new office. About 200 adjusters, agents, property managers and such showed up. It was a blast and I think that we sold a ton of work.

Anyways, after I woke up in the fifth wheel camper that I don't remember entering into the night before, I made my way home. It was all about some good couch time with a lot of left over rids and tri-tip throughout the day. It was a great day... :pimp:

Sunday I actually made it in the garage to move forward. Still feeling a little slow, I started to make up the firewall support that is needed, as I am not running the boxes anymore.

Got one inner done and the rest made up. My hole saw was toast, so it gave me an excuse to stop progress. I was alright with that. :rolleyes:

Here is an old pic from earlier in the thread of what I'm making.

DashBar4.png


and some progress.. All still a little rough, but it did fit.

AAA812002-1024.jpg


AAA812003-1024.jpg


AAA812004-1024.jpg


AAA812005-1024.jpg
 
Not bad man! Glad the party was a hit and hopefully you guys keep doing well!

Your fab work continues to impress as well:bow:
 
I have to say this is my favorite build thread, great work and attention to detail.

Cant wait to see it finished!

BTW , i know it was a year or so ago, but sorry to hear the passing of Romulus.

I have just recently adopted a 120lb CC, awesome animals.
 
I didn't get it back when you posted the pic awhile ago, but I think I understand what you are planning with the through tubes and the plates on the firewall now.

You put the plate inside the cowl to give you something solid to bolt onto, then cut the whole through it so that the tube could be welded to the plate in the engine compartment. That way the plate and through tube are removable (assuming you make the plate inside the dash able to disconnect from the through tube as well). Bolting the through tube to the cowl allows you to use the roll cage to support the firewall, which was needed since you no longer have rocker boxes. The plates on the firewall in the engine compartment will also be tied into the engine cage, thus tying the whole cage system together.

Did I get that all right? :confused: It's all pretty awesome, I'm just not sure I understand it all. :doah::haha:
 
BLUIDVL said:
I have to say this is my favorite build thread, great work and attention to detail.

Cant wait to see it finished!

BTW , i know it was a year or so ago, but sorry to hear the passing of Romulus.

I have just recently adopted a 120lb CC, awesome animals.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty huge statement to me, thanks Man..:bow:

Also appreciate the condolences on Rom. You're right, they are awesome dogs. Had a couple drive by yesterday and stop to ask where the big dog is. I had to tell them that he is gone. I get that still every couple of weeks. People were always amazed at the sight of both of my big dogs playing in the front yard together.

ekajkrats said:
Lookin' great Mike! :waytogo:
Click to expand...

Thanks Brother..:pimp:

ashman said:
I didn't get it back when you posted the pic awhile ago, but I think I understand what you are planning with the through tubes and the plates on the firewall now.

You put the plate inside the cowl to give you something solid to bolt onto, then cut the whole through it so that the tube could be welded to the plate in the engine compartment. That way the plate and through tube are removable (assuming you make the plate inside the dash able to disconnect from the through tube as well). Bolting the through tube to the cowl allows you to use the roll cage to support the firewall, which was needed since you no longer have rocker boxes. The plates on the firewall in the engine compartment will also be tied into the engine cage, thus tying the whole cage system together.

Did I get that all right? :confused: It's all pretty awesome, I'm just not sure I understand it all. :doah::haha:
Click to expand...

:haha:



You got it dude. :bow: The through tube will have a tube disconnect under the dash so it will all be able to come apart. I'll get some better pics today of the tube and such, was pretty tired by the time I finished last night.

I'd love to get to welding in the through tubes with the disco's, but I don't think that I'm going to get that far today. I think that I still want to move the drivers firewall forward a little first.

Hopefully finish making the plates for the shock hoops using all of the existing holes in the frame today. If I get done with those, it will be time to hang a plumb bob and start to shift that drivers side of the firewall around a bit, to see what it gives me.
 
Good job Mike!

I'm a little confused about how this is going to end..... Only because I keep scratching my head on how I will solve this same issue on my build.

A solid-mounted engine cradle is a must, especially when you are using that structure to hold the upper shock mount. The challenge is tying it into the cab that is floating on rubber body mounts. :thinking:

Have you decided to hard mount the body to the cage to the frame? If the engine cradle is hard mounted to the cowl, but the body is still allowed to float on bushings, it seems you're going to have a lot of stress at that attachment point.


-G
 
Truth be told, I'd much rather have you're rig done so I could copy it. :wink1: You come up with some really cool stuff and generally think of all that could go wrong. Me, I crank the tunes, cut some stock, crack a beer and flip my hood down. :haha:

I even said to one of my buds yesterday.... "Man, I sure hope this doesn't crack and rip the entire damn cowl out".

But I really think that it will come out OK. If I didn't hard mount the bottom of the A's to the slider, I think that it would be a rip-out spot, no matter what. I looked back and it's around page 42 or so (yes, I'm still using the given settings) that we all talked about hard vs. soft and everyone pretty much came out saying hard. At first I wanted a ton of Fab bushings for the ride, then BB72 showed the weak point in a lot of those types of configurations.


That's when I did this.

IMAG0116.jpg


If you really see a weak point, please point it out (anybody). I have time to change stuff now, before I lock it in. I guess that's the problem with doing all of this custom stuff that we have never seen. Nobody has field tested it yet.

:ears: My ears are open, guys.

Thanks :waytogo:
 
I'll have to agree with Greg, hard mounting anywhere to the firewall did not work out for me. That cage and body will move around more than you think and way more than I thought, putting tons of stress on it. I have about 12 pics of my engine cage and mounting points if you just want another idea. Mine, I'm sure is not as sweet as yours is going to be, but it still ain't broke. :whistle: If you look at this picture you can see a bad idea. I welded the windshield frame to the cage.That is gone now. Like I said that area being solid was a bad idea. I too am a see it in my mind crank the tunes and weld it up kinda guy.

9-23-2010 Cage 004 (Large).jpg
 
Hey Chris,

Are you talking about the dimpled metal that you put on the side of the A's and welded that to the WS frame? Did ya break the windshield? I can't recall what happened..

Is your tub, hard mounted or still soft?

Thanks
 
The tub is soft mounted. I took it off before I installed the windshield because while test driving I could see it trying to move against each others forces and was fearful it was going to rip the windshield frame where it was welded.

9-23-2010 Cage 015.jpg
 
Thanks for the pics, Chris. That is one sweet engine cage that you built there.

I ended up going to see a friend that had a stroke a couple of weeks ago, then picked up another hard top for another friends 69. Not any progress today, but still got done with some good things.

I have been beating my brain up on the firewall mount though. Man, if this doesn't work, I really have no clue how to add support to the firewall.

From what I can think of, I have two options. One, take off the brackets and just run the tube through the hole and let it be. This would add no strain to the FW, but also add no support, which is probably needed due to running no rocker boxes.

Option two, leave it as is. If I see strain, enlarge the hole on the engine side plate, and do a cage bracket a couple of inches out from the firewall. The plates would just hide the couple of bolt holes through the FW.

Kinda leaning with option two still. I really don't want to leave the firewall unsupported.





While I was typing this I had an idea and ran out and took a couple of pics.

This pics is where I was going to weld the though bar to the engine side plate. I had a plan of putting a plug in the end of the tube and weld it to the inside of the plate, then a small weld on the back side of the plate, too. The hole in the firewall and the inside cowl plate is 2" and the engine plate is 1 3/4".

AAA814001.jpg


Maybe not weld it to the plate, let it run long into the engine bay and install the cage plate there. Like most. But back at the firewall, install a stop on both sides of the engine plate. This would give some give, but once it gets so far, it would hit the stop, thus giving the FW the support that it should have.

AAA814002.jpg


Watcha think..:o
 
Chad (bigblock72) made a really good point earlier in this thread that I didn't really process fully the first time I read it.

Modern unibody cars and SUVs don't use rubber body mounts, and are still nice and quiet going down the road.

I think the strategy (for me at least) should be to build the cage all the way down into the frame and sliders, locking-out all of the rubber body mounts completely. Triangulate the heck out of everything and use as many of the techniques from the Herb Adams book as possible (shear panels, etc). That way, the chassis/frame becomes a rigid "unibody" without any concerns about shredding the cowl or tearing out weld points.

For quietness... Lots of line-x or Lizardskin, then potentially invest in good quality rubber motor mounts instead of poly (maybe some exotic fluid filled ones if needed)... Use the same ones for tranny and xfercase case locations. That should quiet the driveline NVH.

Finally, if the heims in my links are too harsh, switch to a Delrin or softer insert material to gain some softness and reduce noise.

I think the key is that if you decide to go "unibody" you've got to really commit and make things REALLY stiff and well integrated so that you don't create a bunch of stresspoints everywhere in the frame and body. :thinking:


-G
 
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