Looks like a nice setup.
CK5
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A low slung old chevy on rockwells... it can be done
- Thread starter jtk26
- Start date
Aight, so it looks like I am going to give tbi tuning a try....
No... I am serious
Knowing that this motor is more of a steeper build (higher compression, bigger cam, bigger heads and intake) than your run of the mill mail order computer chip could handle, I have decided to try and figure the tuning thing out. I looked into having someone tune this motor, however it would require multiple back and forth chip mailing to get it to run right. And frankly an in person tuning day would set me back a pretty penny, and still leave me clueless to how it all works. So after more research than I care to admit, I have decided to try and burn my own chips. I am going to try my best to get this motor running right on my own. My hope is to try and help take the mystery out of do it your self chip burning (PROM) for tbi's. (Funny thing is a lot of it is still a mystery to me as I type this)
Maybe I will fall flat on my face, or maybe it will work, otherwise all the research I have done already has opened my eyes to all things motors, and personally I like the education. So here is what I am doing...
I picked up one of these (pretty much paid for by the returned intake)...
'APU1' AutoProm Package: USB Version [APU1] - $329.00 : Moates.Net
It's an all in one package for connecting a laptop to the ECM and can scan, data log, burn new chips, and emulate. Emulate = be able to connect directly into where the chip plugs in and make changes on the fly.... while driving.
Obviously the most common software to run this device is tunerpro rt and can be downloaded for free from this website... make sure you download the rt v5.
TunerPro and TunerPro RT - Professional Automobile Tuning Software
There is tons of info on some efi forum sites for those wanting to get into this yourself. Seems like the best threads are on these 2 sites...
GearHead EFI
and
ThirdGen.Org - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards
Anywho, I am still in the early stages, but should be able to fire up the motor in a week or so. I am going to post any successes and failures as I go. I have always wanted to figure out some of the tuning game, and I guess now is as good of a time as ever.
No... I am serious
Knowing that this motor is more of a steeper build (higher compression, bigger cam, bigger heads and intake) than your run of the mill mail order computer chip could handle, I have decided to try and figure the tuning thing out. I looked into having someone tune this motor, however it would require multiple back and forth chip mailing to get it to run right. And frankly an in person tuning day would set me back a pretty penny, and still leave me clueless to how it all works. So after more research than I care to admit, I have decided to try and burn my own chips. I am going to try my best to get this motor running right on my own. My hope is to try and help take the mystery out of do it your self chip burning (PROM) for tbi's. (Funny thing is a lot of it is still a mystery to me as I type this)
Maybe I will fall flat on my face, or maybe it will work, otherwise all the research I have done already has opened my eyes to all things motors, and personally I like the education. So here is what I am doing...
I picked up one of these (pretty much paid for by the returned intake)...
'APU1' AutoProm Package: USB Version [APU1] - $329.00 : Moates.Net
It's an all in one package for connecting a laptop to the ECM and can scan, data log, burn new chips, and emulate. Emulate = be able to connect directly into where the chip plugs in and make changes on the fly.... while driving.
Obviously the most common software to run this device is tunerpro rt and can be downloaded for free from this website... make sure you download the rt v5.
TunerPro and TunerPro RT - Professional Automobile Tuning Software
There is tons of info on some efi forum sites for those wanting to get into this yourself. Seems like the best threads are on these 2 sites...
GearHead EFI
and
ThirdGen.Org - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards
Anywho, I am still in the early stages, but should be able to fire up the motor in a week or so. I am going to post any successes and failures as I go. I have always wanted to figure out some of the tuning game, and I guess now is as good of a time as ever.
Aight, so it looks like I am going to give tbi tuning a try....
No... I am serious
Knowing that this motor is more of a steeper build (higher compression, bigger cam, bigger heads and intake) than your run of the mill mail order computer chip could handle, I have decided to try and figure the tuning thing out. I looked into having someone tune this motor, however it would require multiple back and forth chip mailing to get it to run right. And frankly an in person tuning day would set me back a pretty penny, and still leave me clueless to how it all works. So after more research than I care to admit, I have decided to try and burn my own chips. I am going to try my best to get this motor running right on my own. My hope is to try and help take the mystery out of do it your self chip burning (PROM) for tbi's. (Funny thing is a lot of it is still a mystery to me as I type this)
Maybe I will fall flat on my face, or maybe it will work, otherwise all the research I have done already has opened my eyes to all things motors, and personally I like the education. So here is what I am doing...
I picked up one of these (pretty much paid for by the returned intake)...
'APU1' AutoProm Package: USB Version [APU1] - $329.00 : Moates.Net
It's an all in one package for connecting a laptop to the ECM and can scan, data log, burn new chips, and emulate. Emulate = be able to connect directly into where the chip plugs in and make changes on the fly.... while driving.
Obviously the most common software to run this device is tunerpro rt and can be downloaded for free from this website... make sure you download the rt v5.
TunerPro and TunerPro RT - Professional Automobile Tuning Software
There is tons of info on some efi forum sites for those wanting to get into this yourself. Seems like the best threads are on these 2 sites...
GearHead EFI
and
ThirdGen.Org - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards
Anywho, I am still in the early stages, but should be able to fire up the motor in a week or so. I am going to post any successes and failures as I go. I have always wanted to figure out some of the tuning game, and I guess now is as good of a time as ever.
So just for my own knowledge since I know less than you about tuning TBI chips. I'm sure you did your research so I will ask why did you choose this route over the EBL from dynamic EFI? The Moates kit is a little less expensive. I was looking at the EBL for $430 I think if you just buy their ECU with the mods done and connector added for the cable. Same software and same type setup.. I think
454Sub
5/8 ton status
I also am curious. I'm a die hard TBI guy as its reliability in extreme use is second to none. And getting a few more HP out of my BB, and the ability to remove limp and so on would be nifty.
So just for my own knowledge since I know less than you about tuning TBI chips. I'm sure you did your research so I will ask why did you choose this route over the EBL from dynamic EFI? The Moates kit is a little less expensive. I was looking at the EBL for $430 I think if you just buy their ECU with the mods done and connector added for the cable. Same software and same type setup.. I think
I don't know much about tuning tbi chips, especially since I haven't done it yet. ha ha but I hope that changes soon. I did look long and hard at the EBL flash setup. It looks like a great way to go because it seems to take the guesswork out of VE (volumetric efficiency) table adjustments. It has a VE learn capability to learn as you drive and make adjustments and reflash the computer. It can't do that with everything though. Someone can correct me if I am wrong but it seems to only have the learn capability for VE. So you still have to become very familiar with using Tunerpro to make other adjustments. The advantage I saw with the autoprom is the ability to tune any OBD1 I want. My family currently owns 4 tbi trucks and a tpi LT1, so I want to be able to get all of them going. To do that with EBL flash would take about 5x the $ since you have to buy one for every vehicle. There are also posted excel spreadsheet documents that supposedly help u make the VE corrections easier on your own.
I also like tbi. Although it's archaic compared to newer injection setups, it's a very dependable setup. Freak, I ran my last motor for years without the proper timing set, or a properly functioning 02 or vss sensor and the thing ran relatively fine.
Ohh! This is good to know. I also have 4 TBI rigs so this may be a much better option for me.
Well we live relatively close, let me figure this out and in a month or two I might be able to burn you some chips.
Well we live relatively close, let me figure this out and in a month or two I might be able to burn you some chips.
TBI tuning is super simple. Doesn't get any easier! There are piles of information all over the internet on how to get after it.
If you haven't already, go get yourself a wideband O2 sensor. You will be needing one.
If you haven't already, go get yourself a wideband O2 sensor. You will be needing one.
Yeah I seem to be picking it up rather quick. Gearhead-efi.com has lots of good info. I think the tough part will be getting my higher compression and cammed motor dialed in. Hopefully experienced guys like you will chime in and tell me when I am doing something stupid. And the WB02 came in the mail last night.
Okay so I got the motor all completely rebuilt and threw it back in the engine bay. I gave a quick shot of paint to the firewall since it was exposed. Putting the motor back in with the semi crane sure was nice. I was running the wireless winch remote while driving the semi into place. I honestly had the engine off the stand and bolted into place in maybe an hour... all by myself.
After this it just took hooking everything back up, and filling up some fluids... not worth posting about.
The only thing someone might want to know is how my vacuum lines are setup. PVC is going to the same port on the front of the TB. MAP sensor hooked to the same rear. Other 2 front ports are plugged. The vacuum brakes are connected to an elbow brass fitting in the number 8 intake runner. No vacuum leaks (according to the map sensor reading in tunerpro) and my spliced in new throttle position sensor and IAC valve connectors were done right since both of those sensors are working fine.
Important note: IF YOU SWAP IN A BIG BLOCK THROTTLE BODY, THE WIRING IS DIFFERENT FOR THE IAC VALVE, YOU HAVE TO SWAP 2 WIRES TO HAVE IT WORK!
After this it just took hooking everything back up, and filling up some fluids... not worth posting about.
The only thing someone might want to know is how my vacuum lines are setup. PVC is going to the same port on the front of the TB. MAP sensor hooked to the same rear. Other 2 front ports are plugged. The vacuum brakes are connected to an elbow brass fitting in the number 8 intake runner. No vacuum leaks (according to the map sensor reading in tunerpro) and my spliced in new throttle position sensor and IAC valve connectors were done right since both of those sensors are working fine.
Important note: IF YOU SWAP IN A BIG BLOCK THROTTLE BODY, THE WIRING IS DIFFERENT FOR THE IAC VALVE, YOU HAVE TO SWAP 2 WIRES TO HAVE IT WORK!
To tune the motor I needed some hardware. Moates.net is the best source for this. I had to buy a new laptop since my last one puked almost a year ago. I can't believe I bought a $150 laptop that is virtually the same as the one I bought 4 years ago for $600. It is now dedicated to tuning.
From moates I bought this autoprom....
It came with an ALDL OBD1 cable, usb cable to the laptop, and a ribbon cable that can hook into the chip port in the ECM. I at the same time mailed off my ECM to them to have their G2 chip adapter soldered into the mother board. This makes it so you can use the right chip that can be programed over and over again like a USB. Also includes a registered version of tunerpro. Tunerpro is free, but I didn't mind having the registered version, since it supports the guy who designed it.
New chips on right, old chip on left
Notice the new one has 4 more pins. The old chip can only be erased with some garbage UV light eraser and a programmer that is supposedly out of production.
The autoprom can read it though, so I confirmed that it had the same stock tune as my starting .bin file.
Then I started messing with the tune. I researched like a mother about every single parameter listed. There are still lots of scalars and tables that I have no clue what they do, but I guess for most of them you don't really have to mess with them.
So I started by deleting EGR, and AIR since both are gone. Then I got rid of TCC lockup (I don't drive fast enough in this truck to even use it) but I can always put it back in if need be. Changed injector base pulse width to match what I thought my engine would need, which is important since I changed to big block injectors and throttle body. I also changed some recommended things that forum sites said would leave my idle in open loop. I also stole some numbers in the spark advance table that others had posted who had a motor like mine.
I then did the same thing for the VE table, etc etc. My hope was to be able to fire the truck right up and break in the cam. I was worried that it wouldn't run worth a crap and I wouldn't be able to keep it above 2k rpms. After several days of perseverating I finally burned a chip and hoped for the best.
From moates I bought this autoprom....
It came with an ALDL OBD1 cable, usb cable to the laptop, and a ribbon cable that can hook into the chip port in the ECM. I at the same time mailed off my ECM to them to have their G2 chip adapter soldered into the mother board. This makes it so you can use the right chip that can be programed over and over again like a USB. Also includes a registered version of tunerpro. Tunerpro is free, but I didn't mind having the registered version, since it supports the guy who designed it.
New chips on right, old chip on left
Notice the new one has 4 more pins. The old chip can only be erased with some garbage UV light eraser and a programmer that is supposedly out of production.
The autoprom can read it though, so I confirmed that it had the same stock tune as my starting .bin file.
Then I started messing with the tune. I researched like a mother about every single parameter listed. There are still lots of scalars and tables that I have no clue what they do, but I guess for most of them you don't really have to mess with them.
So I started by deleting EGR, and AIR since both are gone. Then I got rid of TCC lockup (I don't drive fast enough in this truck to even use it) but I can always put it back in if need be. Changed injector base pulse width to match what I thought my engine would need, which is important since I changed to big block injectors and throttle body. I also changed some recommended things that forum sites said would leave my idle in open loop. I also stole some numbers in the spark advance table that others had posted who had a motor like mine.
I then did the same thing for the VE table, etc etc. My hope was to be able to fire the truck right up and break in the cam. I was worried that it wouldn't run worth a crap and I wouldn't be able to keep it above 2k rpms. After several days of perseverating I finally burned a chip and hoped for the best.
Well the linked video was first start. It actually fired right up, and ran good enough to brake the cam in. I will tell you though I think I got carbon monoxide poisoning having this thing run at 2-3k in the garage for half an hour. I put in some fans but I was still pretty woosy and had a headache the rest of the day...
It ran pretty decent above 2k, but idle and off idle was pretty choppy and hesitant. Rapid decel caused some backfiring though the tbi too.
After cam break in (that I believe was successful without damage) I then checked base timing. Disconnected the ESC wire (I think that's what it's called) and the timing was retarded 5 degrees... psh, no wonder it was backfiring. I am sure my cam didn't like that. Set it to TDC and then fired it back up... immediately it ran better. Now it started idling on it's own.
Once I was able to pull it out of the garage, and figured out how to emulate in tunerpro and with the autoprom I started messing around with the main spark advance chart first.
I bumped up the idle timing almost 4 degrees higher than the original stock tune. Created kind of a plateau around where it idled so it wasn't haunting around as much. This definitely helped. It was idling around 800 (perfect for me) and not surging as much. Then I started raising the rpms to see where on the chart (SA vs RPM vs MAP) it went. Then I just starting tinkering with the graph and every little change I made i was able to flash onto the autoprom which was acting like my chip. Able to immediately see the effects of what I was doing. Man that helped out my learning curve. No need to burn a new chip everytime you want to make a change. Anywho I have the spark table set up much better than before.
Here is a video of first start up (backfired out the throttle body) and then after messing with the timing. This is just the beginning, and I still need to get fueling better since it is still pretty freaking rich, but I am learning a lot.
You Tube
One main issue I am having is that the motor goes into closed loop at idle, which I thought wouldn't happen with the changes I made, so I will have to tinker with that. Closed loop idle for some reason is when it becomes really rich, open loop idle it is actually pretty good on fueling.
It ran pretty decent above 2k, but idle and off idle was pretty choppy and hesitant. Rapid decel caused some backfiring though the tbi too.
After cam break in (that I believe was successful without damage) I then checked base timing. Disconnected the ESC wire (I think that's what it's called) and the timing was retarded 5 degrees... psh, no wonder it was backfiring. I am sure my cam didn't like that. Set it to TDC and then fired it back up... immediately it ran better. Now it started idling on it's own.
Once I was able to pull it out of the garage, and figured out how to emulate in tunerpro and with the autoprom I started messing around with the main spark advance chart first.
I bumped up the idle timing almost 4 degrees higher than the original stock tune. Created kind of a plateau around where it idled so it wasn't haunting around as much. This definitely helped. It was idling around 800 (perfect for me) and not surging as much. Then I started raising the rpms to see where on the chart (SA vs RPM vs MAP) it went. Then I just starting tinkering with the graph and every little change I made i was able to flash onto the autoprom which was acting like my chip. Able to immediately see the effects of what I was doing. Man that helped out my learning curve. No need to burn a new chip everytime you want to make a change. Anywho I have the spark table set up much better than before.
Here is a video of first start up (backfired out the throttle body) and then after messing with the timing. This is just the beginning, and I still need to get fueling better since it is still pretty freaking rich, but I am learning a lot.
You Tube
One main issue I am having is that the motor goes into closed loop at idle, which I thought wouldn't happen with the changes I made, so I will have to tinker with that. Closed loop idle for some reason is when it becomes really rich, open loop idle it is actually pretty good on fueling.
I started a facebook page for my builds. If you use facebook, and are interested then like my page...
https://www.facebook.com/dr.k.motorsports/
I will always keep my most detailed tech here on this site, but facebook will probably get the pics/vids first because it's so easy to do with my phone while working on my junk. Doing these build threads is time consuming, and I don't have much time these days.
https://www.facebook.com/dr.k.motorsports/
I will always keep my most detailed tech here on this site, but facebook will probably get the pics/vids first because it's so easy to do with my phone while working on my junk. Doing these build threads is time consuming, and I don't have much time these days.
Facebook is much easier.
Martin
Martin
Yeah I unfriended everyone I didn't know personally and invited them to like the page. Don't want a bunch of freaks I don't know learning too much about my family. Now I can keep my brief tech there and everyone who is interested can see it.
Haha, most of us are freaks for sure!
This thread is officially not going to be updated anymore. I just saw the most ignorant and assinine post by a supposed moderator of this site who is deleting everyone from the facebook page if they don't agree with his pro-homosexual agenda. I don't want to be associated with a four wheeling forum that can't respect all people's opinions, regardless of whether it's related to wheeling or not. I don't care what happened on the page, or what instigated his post, but he obviously doesn't know how to handle himself. If you feel inclined to follow my builds then follow @Dr.K Motorsports on facebook or my pirate thread.
Naw man don't go. That FB page is not affiliated with this forum at all besides some mutual members.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the guy who was doing that is a real wack job to begin with and isn't an actual moderator on the forum. I still can't even find all the crap on FB as I'm apparently not associated with that page. Sounds like just a break off of the actual CK5 stuff that the wack job who is banning people started
See: https://ck5.com/forums/threads/regarding-the-ck5-facebook-page.326504/#post-3661112
He even says he's not a moderator of this site, he's just a douche that started a FB page that's a spin off from this site. He sounds like a major loser in life.
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