anyone run tranny atf fluid in the np205?
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anyone run tranny atf fluid in the np205?
- Thread starter wazzabie
- Start date
This subject was argued on Pirate a year or so ago, while it's a fact that in the last couple of years or so GM spec'd atf in the 205 the general consensus was use gear oil.
ATF is amazing stuff.
Under the type of gear loads a 205 makes, it should cause problems, but it seems to work.
I think all the car maker went to it in the last years of the stock 205 and seemed to not have problems.
However, the reason they did was not to increase the life of the 205 but to reduce the parasitic loads so they could get better mileage.
If you lay your hand on a 205 with regular gear oil after a run down the highway, it will almost burn you.
That increase in temp is engine power being turned into waste heat.
I have been told that ATF units don't get that hot due to less power being wasted stirring the heavier oil around plus less friction.
Don't know myself, I have always run 85W90 and stood the heat.
Now, however, I run Amsoil 85W90 and its much much cooler.
J.
Under the type of gear loads a 205 makes, it should cause problems, but it seems to work.
I think all the car maker went to it in the last years of the stock 205 and seemed to not have problems.
However, the reason they did was not to increase the life of the 205 but to reduce the parasitic loads so they could get better mileage.
If you lay your hand on a 205 with regular gear oil after a run down the highway, it will almost burn you.
That increase in temp is engine power being turned into waste heat.
I have been told that ATF units don't get that hot due to less power being wasted stirring the heavier oil around plus less friction.
Don't know myself, I have always run 85W90 and stood the heat.
Now, however, I run Amsoil 85W90 and its much much cooler.
J.
andyblack
Registered Loser
Fordum, I'm glad you posted that. I've been wondering why in the world a manufacturer would want to put ATF in a transmission or transfer case that has gears instead of the guts of an automatic where a lot of slippage is going on. The manual trans in my 2000 Ford F-150 uses ATF and it stopped shifting worth a crap after it was a couple of years old. About once ever couple of years or so I'll go out there and drain it and put in some fresh ATF (it never looks burnt or discolored) and it will shift slightly better for a while, but then it goes back to not wanting to go into gear smoothly again. I've wondered if switching to normal gear oil will make it shift better, but after what you posted, I wonder if heat will be an issue. The Ford trans has an aluminum case vs. the iron case of the NP205. Don't know how much that would matter.
v30mongo
Registered Member
ATF installed at factory
Many moons ago got a new 1988 V30, SM465/NP205. Gear oil was in the trans and ATF in the transfer. After installing a trans and transfer pto's replaced transfer lube with 80W90 GL5. Still goes good now after 22 years. Maybe either one would work since ATF was factory installed. Just was afraid about the expensive reversable PTO unit.
Many moons ago got a new 1988 V30, SM465/NP205. Gear oil was in the trans and ATF in the transfer. After installing a trans and transfer pto's replaced transfer lube with 80W90 GL5. Still goes good now after 22 years. Maybe either one would work since ATF was factory installed. Just was afraid about the expensive reversable PTO unit.
The aluminum case would make a large difference over the same transmission with cast iron.
The heat transfer rate difference between the two is huge.
Whether gear lube would help the shifting, is hard to say without knowing what it is about the shifting that is bad.
If it were me, I would switch to a synthetic gear lube.
This gives you the advantages of a heavier lube with the slipperiness of the lighter stuff.
I run Amsoil in everything, but others are good too.
There are a lot of claims about synthetics, some may or may not be true. I have seen some amazing debates about them.
But, I think most folks will agree that they reduce friction over standard oils.
I got sold many years ago.
I was on CServ talking a guy through installing an electronic temperature sensor on the rear end of his new F350.
He hauled horses across the mountains, and Ford had warranted his rear chunk 4 times so far.
One or two rebuilds, one complete inner parts replacement, and finally the entire rear end.
He said that by the time he looked back and saw the smoke pouring out of the vent it was too late.
So he had begin stopping ever so many miles and letting it cool off.
He wanted a way to monitor the temp so he could do that more efficiently.
We got it set up, and he loved it. He would pull over and either read a book or take a nap anytime it got up to some temp. I remember 180, but that seems high.
One day an Amsoil guy suggested that he try their stuff next time he changed the fluid, which he did every so often.
He wrote back later and said that with a full load of horses, heavy foot on the throttle, it never got hot enough for him to pull over the entire trip.
I switched to Amsoil the next fluid change. My 205 ran cooler than it ever had.
Still does, in fact.
J.
The heat transfer rate difference between the two is huge.
Whether gear lube would help the shifting, is hard to say without knowing what it is about the shifting that is bad.
If it were me, I would switch to a synthetic gear lube.
This gives you the advantages of a heavier lube with the slipperiness of the lighter stuff.
I run Amsoil in everything, but others are good too.
There are a lot of claims about synthetics, some may or may not be true. I have seen some amazing debates about them.
But, I think most folks will agree that they reduce friction over standard oils.
I got sold many years ago.
I was on CServ talking a guy through installing an electronic temperature sensor on the rear end of his new F350.
He hauled horses across the mountains, and Ford had warranted his rear chunk 4 times so far.
One or two rebuilds, one complete inner parts replacement, and finally the entire rear end.
He said that by the time he looked back and saw the smoke pouring out of the vent it was too late.
So he had begin stopping ever so many miles and letting it cool off.
He wanted a way to monitor the temp so he could do that more efficiently.
We got it set up, and he loved it. He would pull over and either read a book or take a nap anytime it got up to some temp. I remember 180, but that seems high.
One day an Amsoil guy suggested that he try their stuff next time he changed the fluid, which he did every so often.
He wrote back later and said that with a full load of horses, heavy foot on the throttle, it never got hot enough for him to pull over the entire trip.
I switched to Amsoil the next fluid change. My 205 ran cooler than it ever had.
Still does, in fact.
J.
andyblack
Registered Loser
Interesting. I wonder if that guy could have benefitted from one of those Mag HiTech aluminum diff covers that hold twice as much oil and have fins to help with cooling.
I'm not really sure why my Ford doesn't shift good. It never was great (I bought it new) and now it has over 200,000 miles on it. Once I slid the boot up and looked at the way the shifter was attached to the transmission. I think I remember seeing a lot of play between the shifter, the actual handle and the two bolts that were holding them together. I looked for some kind of aftermarket shifter upgrade but couldn't find one at the time. Ford doesn't seem to have a huge aftermarket support network or enthusiast base like GM has. I wonder if they have an online forum like ck5 for V6 Ford pickups with manual transmissions (since they were so common).
I somehow doubt it.
I'm not really sure why my Ford doesn't shift good. It never was great (I bought it new) and now it has over 200,000 miles on it. Once I slid the boot up and looked at the way the shifter was attached to the transmission. I think I remember seeing a lot of play between the shifter, the actual handle and the two bolts that were holding them together. I looked for some kind of aftermarket shifter upgrade but couldn't find one at the time. Ford doesn't seem to have a huge aftermarket support network or enthusiast base like GM has. I wonder if they have an online forum like ck5 for V6 Ford pickups with manual transmissions (since they were so common).
I somehow doubt it.
Not using the specified fluid in a manual trans can toast it in short order, I've known several people that drained their trans and just put gear oil or atf (that one calls for some special synthetic and not atf) and killed the trans soon after.
andyblack
Registered Loser
That's kind of why I haven't really seriously considered trying it. I've thought about going down to the dealership and asking someone down there who seems to know what he's doing about swapping it over, but I don't think I trust even them on something like that. Guess I'll just keep the ATF. Bad shifting is better than a locked up transmission any day.
Several companies make synthetic ATF that is specifically meant for manual transmissions, might be worth checking out.
Stomis
Professional Amateur
The general consensus is that aluminum cases HAVE to have ATF because of expansion properties.
Cast cases can get either.
Cast cases can get either.
with a TH350 NP 205 in the event that the seal leaks it is better to have atf. I would rather have leaking atf into the tranny then gear oil
I'm pretty sure that most of the 205's came from the factory with gear oil and only the later syncronized 205's used ATF.
It's doubtful that you'll ever get fluid from the t-case moving forward into the trans, you will get trans fluid into the t-case though if the seal goes bad.
Fwiw, my 91 V3500 had atf in the 205 (non syncro'd).
OK, quick slightly off topic question.
I have seen mention of synchronized 205s here before. To my knowledge I have never run into one.
I may have ridden in trucks that had them, but unless you get underneath, you seldom know what type of running gear is down there.
My question is: What the heck is synchronized?
I have never needed one to go from 2hi to 4hi and back as long as the hubs were turned.
And if they are synchronizing the shift from High to Lo, that must take the synchronizer from Hell!!
The only time it seems it would help is if you had automatic hubs.
Hmm, I may have just answered my own question.....
J.
I have seen mention of synchronized 205s here before. To my knowledge I have never run into one.
I may have ridden in trucks that had them, but unless you get underneath, you seldom know what type of running gear is down there.
My question is: What the heck is synchronized?
I have never needed one to go from 2hi to 4hi and back as long as the hubs were turned.
And if they are synchronizing the shift from High to Lo, that must take the synchronizer from Hell!!
The only time it seems it would help is if you had automatic hubs.
Hmm, I may have just answered my own question.....
J.
Bingo, they were in auto hub equipped trucks in the early to mid 80's. It was high range that was synro'd. These are identified by an extra oiling vein on the lower rear cover, I've got a pic I'll post in a second.
Standard 205 lower rear cover -
Syncro'd 205 lower rear cover -
Syncro'd 205 lower rear cover -
